Talk:Penguin/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Penguin. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Picture

lokiiita:Manypenguins.jpg and if anyone knows what type of penguins these are they can add it to the gallery. Thanks. Will 20:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

you forgot a species

The galapagos penguin, add it!

General comment

The article contains so many falsities that I don't know where to begin. It seems that most of the "facts" derive in one way or the other from the popular movie "The march of the penguins". A fundamental revision of this article and the subsequent species pages would be really necessary. Unfortunately I currently have no capacities to do so but my advise to anyone wanting to tackle this issue is to refer to the appropriate literature, i.e. Williams 1995 and Davis & Renner 2003 that are listed in the reference section at the bottom of the article page. Some excerpts and basis information given in the latter book can be found at [[1]] which is maintained by the author of that book. C00ch 13:38, May 09, 2006 (NZST)

Addition re: WPCD - Although penguins are certainly an essential topic in encyclopedias I think that the current quality of this article does not justify inclusion in the Wikipedia CD project. The article is grossly unbalanced and instead of providing even background information about penguins, highlights details that are often completely out of context (e.g. diving speeds, external genitalia, homosexuality) or wrong (e.g. sense of smell not researched, chromosome testing necessary to determine sex). Other information are dubious at best without giving sources (e.g. excellent hearing) or overweighted (e.g. Evolution). C00ch 13:45, June 20, 2006 (NZST)

Eyesight and Hearing - First off, sorry if this is the wrong location for this. I have never added to a discussion, so I'm not very good at it. Now, the issue. This article says that penguins are nearsighted and have excellent hearing. In a study published by Sivak & Howland in 1984 shows that (at least Humboldt) penguins have very good vision both in air and in water. [The article can be read here.] The other problem is the labeling of penguin hearing as "excellent." As [www.seaworld.org] says "As in most birds, penguin hearing is probably good, but not as acute as that of marine mammals." Also, in a study published by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Blackfooted Penguins showed sensitivity over a range of .1 kHz to 15 kHz. Compare this to a study published by The Journal of the Acoustical Society of America in 1989 on hearing in Beluga Whales. They found that the whales were sensitive over a range of .04 kHz to 120 kHz. I would hardly call the penguin's hearing "excellent" after that. The links to the 2 studies follow. [|Hearing in Blackfooted Penguins] [Hearing in Beluga Whales] Logan 19:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I have added the {fact} tag after those claims in the article to show that they need information if they are to stay.Logan 15:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Hearing and Smell Edit - I have changed the statement that Penguins have excellent hearing to they have average hearing for birds. Someone placed my source as support that they have excellent hearing when that is not what it prooved. I have also taken out the statement about their smell not being researched. The information is out there, we are all apparently just to lazy to find it. Logan 21:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Meh, I placed that cite there ( I didn't read this page beforehand) and wasn't paying attention, average is certainly a better descriptor of their hearing (although they have impressive capabilities in finding their chicks in crowded colonies, I guess this isn't what they meant. Excellent is a sort of subjective word, perhaps we should look up the range of hearing in the family and include that rather than statements about average or excellent?) As for olfaction I doubt it has been studied, only a few birds have any olfactive abilities (nw vultures, kiwis and procellariids) so it is probably as well out of here. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Trans-equatorial

Do we have citations for trans-equatorial penguins? My reading had said that the reason there are no penguins in the northern hemisphere is that the equatorial currents block them. Vicki Rosenzweig

The Galapagos penguin may cross the equator and even breeds on an island north of the equator. So the passage is not incorrect. See [[2]]. Cordyph

Taxobox

This is my opinion - the earlier image on the taxobox was "better" than the latest replacement. Well, this penguin has got too many fancy designs on it, and its difficult to say its really a penguin by looking at it. Maybe a penguin-expert can recognize the bird, but for the common reader, this is probably the close-up of a pigeon. Lets have the simple white-vested black-coated bird, and move the present one to the particular species page to which it belongs. Jay 21:22, Sep 13, 2003 (UTC)

You've really got me puzzled, Jay. I took the pic and put it there.

Firstly, I'm sure 99.99 percent of the readers would recognise it instantly as penguin, I've no idea why you can't! In any case, it says it's a penguin underneath. To suggest it could be a pigeon is childish and silly. Have you ever seen a pigeon? If not, have a look at birdfeeding.

Secondly, there is no species article for the African Penguin, as a look further down the article would have quickly shown you.

Thirdly, taxobox pics are usually closeups and in focus, the previous picture was neither of those. It was good enough until a better one came along (like mine).

Best Wishes,

Adrian Pingstone 08:18, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

These would not be racing pigeons, then, I take it? Tannin

ahh.. maybe you (refers to Adrian Pingstone) were the penguin-expert I was talking about. I had gone through your image contributions for a vast array of articles, which is why I had expected that a still better penguin would be available in your repertoire.

I've added an article for African penguin, and have given a good physical description in the 2nd para. So a penguin standing facing the camera would be better as we can see the black spots. Pls check if you have such a pic.

Regarding close-ups I'm not sure. If its a wikipedia image policy its ok. But personally I feel it need not be a close-up but any photo that brings out the context of the subject, which is why I feel a simple black-and-white coloured penguin standing on the ice would go with the context of a penguin better. Even in the pigeon example that you have given, the pigeon occupies just 5% of the photo, and is still appropriate.

(my comparion of your penguin to a pigeon meant no disrespect, its the penguin's fault not yours! Your aircraft pics are great! are they original ?)

Jay 10:59, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, Jay, you raise a good point. Would it be better to have a sterotypical penguin in the penguin taxobox? (As opposed to the African Penguins pictured, I mean - they really are quite unusual. Better to have the least surprise? Or better to let the reader know that there is more to penguins tan he/she expects? But we might be stretching the ability of even Adrian's extensive collection of pictures to find the exact one we want - especially as most penguins live a long way south of me, and I'm 10,000 miles south of Adrian! I'm off on an extended bird photography trip soon, but heading north not south, so I don't expect to get any penguins! Oh, and Adrian's aircraft pics are all his own work. Tannin 11:07, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I've found this which refers to Royal Penguins (Eudyptes schlegeli) - is this an omission? (I know nothing about penguins). Secretlondon 21:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See first paragraph of Emperor Penguin. Morwen 22:02, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

etc.

While on an unrelated edit, I snipped out statements such as (paraphrased) "the line of bubbles behind a diving penguin is due to air being trapped under their feathers" and "penguins can outrun most humans." As to the first, any object, even a fairly streamlined one, will have a trail of bubbles if plunged into water. As to the second, perhaps they can toboggan faster than a running human, but waddline on their two feet? I don't know... --Yath 06:28, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Do we really need links for words such as: weigh, behavior, evidence, tuxedo, spies? They are common english words that are not specifically related to penguins, and can be looked up in a dictionary. --138.217.32.57 12:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Chilly Willy

There was, besides a game Chilly Willy, also a Tex Avery cartoon segment of the same name. Schissel : bowl listen 04:11, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

(Correction - that should be Lantz segment, Avery directed the Lantz studio.) Schissel : bowl listen 21:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

External genitalia

I added that penguins have external genitalia in the Anatomy section, after viewing an Animal Planet documentary. This can be backed up with this source.

I'm sorry, but you should read the article you cite. It reads "...t since penguins have no external genitalia...". Penguins do not have external genitalia. Their cloaca is the only orifice utilised during copulation. C00ch 13:17, May 09, 2006 (NZST)

Needed sections

Etymology

Mating habits

I just saw the film March of the Penguins and it asserts that Emperor Penguins mate once per season but not necessarily with the same mate every year. This seems to contradict the "penguins mate for life" notion that this article features. Perhaps penguins in capitivity mate for life? --feitclub July 5, 2005 21:44 (UTC)

Penguins do not mate for life per se. In fact, the "divorce rate" (i.e. the percentage of pairs not reuniting in successive breeding seasons) is largely species specific. Emperor and King penguins have the highest divorce rate amongst the penguins (only 15%-19% of pairs reunite, see Davis & Renner 2003), while other species tend to stick with their partners and indeed mate for life. C00ch May 9, 2006 13:49 (NZST)

How does a male penguin fertilise the female's egg? --138.217.32.57 12:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Via spermtransfer over the cloaca. C00ch May 9, 2006 13:49 (NZST)

Wrong Danish translation

In Danish, a penguin is called "Pingvin", not "Pengvin". I don't know how to edit this, or if it is editable at all, but if possible, please correct the error, and tell me how to edit those translations :-) --MathiasRav 18:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) Nevermind. Just found out how to edit it :-S --MathiasRav 16:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Record diving depth contradiction

This page says: The Emperor Penguin has been recorded reaching a depth of 875 feet (270 metres) and staying submerged for 18 minutes.

However, the Emperor Penguin page itself says: The penguins can venture down deeper, the deepest diving on record being 565 metres. The longest they can hold their breath when underwater is 20 minutes.

I recently saw the film March of the Penguins, and it seems to support the latter view, at least as far as the diving depth is concerned. The film mentions 15 minutes as the duration it can stay underwater. Could someone consult an authoritative source and correct one (or both) of these pages?

--Chipmunk 03:25, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm

Had the dinosaurs not died out, penguins could look like this [1].

Is this really necessary, that page isn't a serious or at least mainstream scientific study, albeit an interesting creation. Opinions?

What exactly is up with the "Penguins of Death" page that follows what penguins would look like if dinosaurs hadn't gone extinct? Is this a joke?

Rant

The following was added to the article by anonymous User:24.159.239.230. I've moved it here because she said "thank you". -Rholton 03:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Penguins DO NOT live in the Arctic!!!!! They are not eaten by polar bears. Penguins are not little fluffballs that wear scarves and play all day long for no reason!! They are not the happiest animals on Earth, and they do not live easy lives. Most penguins do not live in the cold!!!!!!!!! Yes, they all live in the southern hemisphere, but most of them spend thier whole lives on the warmer regions, like South Africa, or New Zealand. Thank you for listen ing to my rant. Good day!!!!!

Gender gap

Isn't the gender gap only true of cold weather penguins, like the Emperor? The article currently suggests this is true of all penguins. I'm tempted to revise the article, but this isn't my area of expertise. Gregmg 01:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. That paragraph really sounds as if someone saw March of the Penguins. This obviously isn't true of all penguins, at least the harsh climate bit. I'm going to remove it.

Removing it again, will do so until it comes with some support. --Erik Garrison 20:33, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The support will not come because the gender gap is nonsense. It would require an enormous effort of sexing adult birds of a species across its entire range to statistically substantiate this idea. I furthermore don't see how the evolution of such a gender gap could be explained. And finally, I really would like to know in which species female penguins are supposed to fight for males. I guess I have to watch "March of the Penguins" after all... *sigh*C00ch 17:27, May 09, 2006. (NZST)

Speed

Why isn't there any mention of the top speed of a penguin? I can't seem to find any truly reliable source. This is especially useful when someone doubts Linus Torvalds [3], which I personally get quite a few of.

Much more is known about Pressures produced when penguins pooh Polar Biol (2003) 27: 56–58 (link to pdf paper) http://flow.arrr.net/penguins.pdf. So we can inject a bit of humour. I will try to edit that into a new section when possible.

Oh, I heard about it and got me a copy. It's kinda fun, might even go in there. Either under anatomy or under popculture, as the paper won an Ig Nobel Prize. Dysmorodrepanis 02:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

blessed by god

No, the subject line isn't a joke. A friend of mine has heard somewhere that it was once thought that penguins were blessed by god because they walk on two legs, as does god's chosen chordate. It sounds feasible, but I'm not going to add something so apocryphal to the article - if anyone can find a source for this I'd be fascinated to read it. I tried searching google, but if the information is out there anywhere then Penguin Books skews the search beyond usefulness. Hughcharlesparker 11:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

New penguin genus? + Evolution/systematics

In March 2006, a new genus of fossil penguins was recognized: the stem penguins, or Waimanu manneringi. Should they be in the classification, or otherwise mentioned? Pengwy 02:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Updated evolution and classification sections with this and other fossil penguins.Dinoguy2 17:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I came across a paper but forgot where it was from exactly. Seems there has been a good hypothesis based on molecular data and area of occurence of Recent and fossil spp on the evolution. Much new fossil data to put in there, IIRC it was already missing out on distribution of the newer fossil spp.
At any rate, at least the picture becomes much clearer... the spheniscines seem to have spread along the Arctic coast (Aptenodytes is the most very ancient lineage IIRC) somewhere eo-mioceneish. The extant subfamily then spread with an expanding ice sheet and separated geographically into its lineages. The Subarctic subfamilies then went north (geographically) and thus south (figuratively). Guess the fact that the contemporary whales were often enough a kind of dolphin on steriods and crack might have something to do with it...
If one put all known prehistoric species (groups) into this, the result should be very intersting. At any rate, if you stumble upon this paper (I think some prof hosts a PDF), please be so good and put some stuff in there and reference it, willya? Dysmorodrepanis 02:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Did all that, and then some. Now it's time dto kick back n relax. Dysmorodrepanis 21:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Pop Culture

The pop culture section is very long. Should this be branched off into its own article? I've seen this done on a number of other entries.Dinoguy2 17:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Penguin = Libertarian Symbol?

Are there any sources that verify, or even contend that the penguin is "an unofficial symbol of the United States Libertarian Party." This seems either wholly made up, or some confusion with the open-source/Linux association. Davebug 17:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, the Statue of Liberty is the Libertarian symbol. --Rory096 06:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Arithmetic: Eudyptula?!

There are 17 to 19 known species worldwide, depending on whether the two Eudyptula species are counted as distinct.

The difference between 17 and 19 is two. The difference between 1 and 2 (Eudyptula) is one. Where does the remaining variance come from? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 16:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

1) Eudyptula might be 2 species = +1. 2) Royal Penguin might be morph (we should have molecular data by now?!) = -1. 3) Rockhopper might be 2 species also = +1. So you get anywhere between 17 and 18 (or indeed, 16, if 1 and 3 are false and 2 is true). Dysmorodrepanis 02:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Mol data on rockhoppers available (2 recently diverged spp), on Royal still pending it seems. Dysmorodrepanis 21:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Social Agenda

I detect a lack of neutral, academic tone in the section on gay penguins, particularly in the closing: "Whilst humans don't find this to be normal, there are many gay penguins out there!"

The issue should be presented, but in fairness, it should be noted that the gay-penguin phenomenon appears to present primarily in unnatural environments, i.e., captivity. If neutral tone is maintained, a reader will come away from the section without supposing that this article is intended to bear on homosexual behavior by humans.

While I fail to see the relevance of a discussion of penguin homosexuality for the broad summary of penguin biology other than human curiosity, I must point out, that homosexuality is not confined to "unnatural environments". As a matter of fact, it has been observed in many wild bird species ranging from Adelie penguins to raptors. However, I believe that dwelving into such details will just draw the reader's attention from the essentials of penguin biology that should be distributed on this page. Unfortunately, this page features several sections that just highlight a detail instead of giving a full picture (e.g. "Evolution"). C00ch 13:40, June 20, 2006 (NZST)

There should be a redirect for some Homosexuality in Nonhumans page or section and more substantial information might go in there. Dysmorodrepanis 02:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I just read this Wikipedia article for the first time (I'm watching Happy Feet). I'm a gay male and just as inclined to the "social agenda" as the next gay, however the whole "section" on Homosexual penguin behavior could be replaced by one sentence -- or omitted altogether. Most species of animals have gay populations, and penguins are simply one among the vast majority. It seems like this article over-documents it as an oddity. I'm going to offer an edit, and this will be the reason why. Funchords 01:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Penguins as a food source for humans?

Is there any info on penguins as a food source for humans?

Added stuff about Argentinian penguins

I just found in the Spanish page information about Argentinian penguins measuring 1.6 meters, so I translated it into English and placed it here.

This is the original text:

En 2002 científicos argentinos descubrieron en las costas de la Península Antártica una subespecie de pingüino emperador cuyos ejemplares llegan a medir 1,6 m.

And this is the translated text:

In 2002, a group of Argentinian scientists found in the coast of the Antarctic Peninsula a subspecies of the emperor penguin, with a maximum height of 1.6 m.

I also updated the part about their height.

201.129.133.155 05:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

But this is somewhat wrong methinks; I have read of a new giant species, but not of a EP ssp. The really large species have been known for 100 years now (Lovecraft knew about them). All the info was in the evoution section, which some vandal deleted. I put it back in, but rephrased the above addition so that it now refers to the enormous extinct species (thanks for discovering the "largest species is the Emperor penguin" - should be largest living species - glitch!).

By the way, the Argie scientists are Carolina Acosta Hospitaleche and her co-workers. She's probably the foremost authority on the prehistory of penguins these days, and quite nice. Much of her work is available on-line, and if not, she will be happy to give you a copy. They will over the next years probably piece together a consistent picture of penguin evolution. Most of the subfamily layout is based on her research. Dysmorodrepanis 01:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Cite source for Roy & Silo

Can anyone please cite the source for this commentary? "The couple about whom the book was based, Roy and Silo, would see further interesting developments in their relationship when in September 2005, Silo left Roy for a female penguin, only to come back to Roy in a few weeks." I'm looking all over the net for articles about their reunion, but so far, I've only come across their break-up. Thanks! Kyuu 02:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

As nothing has been cited to show the two of them back together again. And everything I've seen on the web ends with Silo being with a female penguin, I'm going to pull the "only to come back to Roy...." part. If anyone can come up with a cite for them being back together, feel free to put it back. Sperril 14:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge request

This page was the target of a merge request from Giant Penguin. Redirected that to Palaeeudyptinae where it belongs. Dysmorodrepanis 04:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

penquins age?

how old can a penquin live to? and and all different penquins, just watched the march of the penquins and want to know how old can they get to be??

It depends on the penguin. Emperors usually live 10-20 years [4] DPM 22:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

why don't penguins feet freeze?

???--Colsmeghead 21:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

In essence, see Countercurrent exchange, and consider how it might work in the blood vessels to a bird's legs. But maybe it is worth expanding on in the article? Gnusmas 14:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Do penguins sweat?

Its a genuine question. If you put the penguin in a relatively warm location, will it start to sweat? (especially with Global Warming warming the world)

I would doubt it. I have never heard that they don't but I haven't heard that any birds do. Most of them don't even need it so probably not. DPM 22:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind Look in pargraph 3 DPM 22:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Penguins lose heat through their feet (which are not covered in feathers.) you can tell if a penguin is hot if its feet are very pink! so no, i dont think it sweats.123.3.48.184 09:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)zaz

Giant Penguin

Can someone who knows about Giant Penguins and the subfamily Palaeeudyptinae look at the merge request on those pages. I think Giant Penguin was a page for people who edit paranormal articles; I think they've tried to merge the paranormal content and a wee bit of scientific content. I'm not sure if the paranormalists will object to the merge. Yet it seems silly to have both pages. Olin 17:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"Name" Section is a mess - see for instance Merriam Webster and the article on the Great Auk for a better account of the evidence

1) From Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Penguin - Etymology: obsolete English penguin, 'great auk', perhaps from Welsh pen gwyn, 'white head' (applied to the bird in winter plumage)

2) From the Great Auk article:

"One theory connects names for the Great Auk with the origin of the word penguin, which may have come from the Welsh or Breton phrase pen gwyn, meaning "white head", referring originally to the Great Auk (although the head of the Great Auk was not in fact white, there are two white patches on its face). Later, when explorers discovered apparently similar birds in the southern hemisphere, what we now call penguins, the term was supposedly transferred to them.

It might be of interest to note that in French language, Auks are called "Pingouins" (a word close to Penguin) while Penguins (the southern birds) are called "Manchots" (a word meaning "armless"). Most French people still remain confused, calling Penguins "Pingouins" instead of "Manchots" as the two tyes of birds share many characteristics."

As for this article, the current "name" section here is little more than a big Original Research dump. Most unsourced statements about an ancient "common origin" from PIE or Germanic are rubbish, to say the least, considering that a) Penguins are Southern Hemisphere animals and were obviously unknown in ancient Europe. The closest thing to a penguin known at the time was the Great Auk, which is by far the most obvious connection (see above); and b) all cited forms in modern Germanic languages are loanwords either from English penguin or from French pingouin (see above).

So it seems that some people didn't even care to look up such accessible materials as dictionary etimologies before adding such nonsense to the article. The most obvious evidence mentioned in the references above are only briefly mentioned, whereas a clutter of wild and OR "theories" is given much more than due weight.

Considering these facts, and if nobody objects, I plan to start a complete rewrite of the "name" section soon. Any suggestions or additions are appreciated.KelilanK 07:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be citable references for it. The particular linguistics of this one have been of some interest to ornithologists earlier in the 20th century. You might want to check out Erroll Fuller's Great Auk book for references, or try and search SORA, Springer-Link (which has the complete Journal für Ornithologie archive), etc. Dysmorodrepanis 14:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Go for it! Snalwibma 14:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

A "big Original Research dump"??!! You've got to be kidding!! There is one unsourced statement in that section; all others have citations referring to the entry "Penguin" in the Oxford English Dictionary. What better source do you want? --Śiva 22:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It's because your response came a little late, Śiva ;). The section has already improved a lot since my first comment.KelilanK 21:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Link Spam

This link: "www.pinguins.info : information about all species of penguins" appears on top of the links on basically every penguin related page. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.242.187.253 The link is not particularly helpful as it goes to a generic page about penguins, rather than a page particularly important to the page it links from. I am sure this person was well intentioned, but I feel that there are more authoritative websites to link to, such as http://www.penguin.net.nz/ or http://www.penguinworld.com

Penguin gender

I have read articles that raise questions in my mind but do not precisely explain the question of ascertaining penguin gender. Several articles talk about doing blood tests to ascertain the gender of any given penguin. Also, both males and female penguins of some if not all penguin species types have internal genetalia, and similar structures inside the penguin. Is it then true that without blood tests, physical examination cannot ascertain penguin gender? Then, it is worth asking, are penguins capable of reliably knowing the gender of other penguins? All of these questions might be species specific, but the answer to some of them could apply to all penguins, I suppose depending on what the answer is. 128.101.70.98 15:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think they all have internal genitalia, and though a trained veterinarian could possibly make an educated cuess by examining the cloaca (see chicken sexing) the birds themselves can't. HBW indicates that in Eudyptes, males and females should be separable (at least to the birds themselves , which should be considered the foremost experts in penguin sexing ;-) ) with quite some certainty, as males tend to be larger and have markedly heavier bills. In other genera, there are "no" good hints at external sexual dimorphism. I use quotation marks, because it is rather certain that penguins can hear well and have an amazing capability to remember voices of other penguins; they seem to recognize partners, children, parents etc mostly by their voice. So there might be some subtle differences in calls, pitch etc; I don't think this has been properly researched but it might be worth it.

All penguins seem to be serially monogamous to truly monogamous, i.e. they mate and once mated, they don't mess aroung with other individuals, though they change partners if it "don't work out". I don't know if there have been studies to determine to what extent if any copulation occurs outside the pair bond; it might be worthwhile to check Marine Ornithology journal and SORA for that. So the minimal thing one can say would be that they just check out "available singles" and see if it works out, with the correct sex being of secondary importance at least initially. And the opposite extreme would be subtle clues of behavior, voice, ... that are opposite to the birds themselves, except in Eudyptes where it is more obvious.

There is one penguin species in which even untrained observers can distinguish sexes with some certainty: female Royal Penguin quite often have a grey or grey-patterned face, whereas males rarely do (as per HBW). Given the taxonomic uncertainties about this particular species, Haldane's Rule could give some interesting hints. Dysmorodrepanis 14:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Penguin Video External Link

Please add in external links: Penguin Video Stock Footage from OceanFootage and link to http://www.oceanfootage.com/stock_video/penguin_video.htm Thank youFreeflowfun 21:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Intelligence

I want to ask how are penguins intelligent? They are non-flying birds and can have large brain, but I can't find any information about their brain and intellectual abilities. Til. 29.03.07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.227.194.147 (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC). I hink this a good example of a article about panguines. The penguins rock and are usually found in cold placez!

Convergent evolution with Auks

I've taken out the following short paragraph from the article:

"The Auk of the Northern Hemisphere is superficially similar to penguins, they are not related to the penguins at all, but considered by some to be a product of moderate convergent evolution."

I did so because it uses weasel words, it doesn't cite a source and it seems to be original research. In wikipedia articles we can't say "considered by some...", we need to say "J. Bloggs, in his paper 'Penguins and Auks (2007)', says..." --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 13:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)