Talk:Morgan le Fay

Untitled

"Because Arthur did not know his sisters, Morgan seduced him and gave birth to their son, the wicked inbreed Mordred. (According to the legend, Mordred grew to manhood away from Arthur's court, and eventually killed his father, bringing an end to the Arthurian age.) "

Originally, that was Morgause (another of Arthur's sisters) not Morgan in the legend (check with Le Morte d'Arthur and Once and Future King). However in more modern works (like Mists of Avalon or the mini-series Merlin), they often combine the 2, possibly to make Morgan's characters seem more maleficent. I'm not sure exactly when this started, but if someone who knows could expound that'd be great. - Jsan 17:25, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Let's see... John Boorman's Excalibur just pips The Mists of Avalon as the earliest thing I know of with that trope in. Maybe it was something in the air in the early 80s, and a bunch of people all came up with it independently. Anybody know of anything earlier? —Paul A 01:42, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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This is just a recommendation to whoever has authority, to move the page. Morgan le Fay -> Morgan la Faye, the correct, feminine version of the name, (since Morgana is female and this name is the French version. The equivalent english versions would be Morgan the Fairy or Morgan the Fair.)

"Morgan le Fay" may be bad French, but centuries of usage have given it respectability and a degree of seniority. Nobody writing in English ever uses "Morgan la Faye" (or, for that matter, "Morgan the Fairy"), so it would be incorrect to use that as the name of the article. --Paul A 04:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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I take umbrage to this line: "As a Celtic woman, Morgana has inherited through her mother a share of the earth magic that Arthur lacks." In no text that I know of do both Morgan and Arthur's mother have magical powers. And what is "earth magic"? Morgan typically learns her magic, from the convent she studies at and from Merlin.

Morgan le Fay has no fay powers? "Morgan" has no connection with an Irish goddess of war: Morrigan? The fay queen is a standard figure of early Celtic mythology. Merlin the magician himself is hard to Christianize, as in Vita Merlini. Have a look at Brian Edward Rise, "Morgan le Fay" HtH. --Wetman 08:22, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Brian Rise article seems to be entirely conjectural -- at least, he offers no references, and a number of his conclusions are, to say the least, surprising.Martin Turner 13:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not what I meant. I don't know of any texts that claim Morgan's powers came from feminine "earth magic" inherited from her and Arthur's mother. She certainly had powers, but their origin was either taken for granted (because she was a fay), or credited to the convent and Merlin. Clearly the character is Celtic in origin but I think we're stretching it a bit to say she got her powers from her mother when none of the major texts say this. - Cuchullain

NOPV?

Does the author who placed "and in recent years has been increasingly seen by feminist revisionists as the human representation of the archetypical goddess element" have any sources to indicate that this is a revisionist statement? Also, the association between feminism and revisionism is of a disputable viewpoint. I would question that the statement is made from an NPOV. --Cgranade 07:31, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I'll make some small edits... see what you think (if you're still hanging around). :) Janet13 13:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Our "feminine archetypes" have always been subject to 'bad press' by the patriarchal, monotheistic revisionism of conquering (his)torians. If it weren't for Marion Zimmer Bradley's feminist re-write, our spiritual connections with, and memories of our more humane ancestors, would have been savaged and lost, beyond reach. Blessed Be, MorganaSage

The above is, in my humble and straining to be objective opinion, an example of extreme POV...I would argue that ancient women were probably no more and no less humane than any women today. That goes for men too. Marion Zimmer Bradley's book, though certainly interesting, probably shouldn't be taken as history. Or, I'm sorry, (her)story. Ryan 20:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Brian Rise quotation included? I've checked his website and he does not seem to offer any evidence for this point of view. If someone does have evidence to support it, could they reference it to a scholarly text or a literary source? I'm not aware of any, but perhaps someone else is.Martin Turner 19:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought that line was nonsense. The character of Morgan le Fay is a medieval Christian creation, though clearly inspired by older Celtic elements, among other things. "Medieval Christianity" had no problem "assimilating" benevolent enchantresses- she is benevolent in a number of works, not to mention the Lady of the Lake. I'll work on it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the line with more on her actual appearances in literature, rather than conjecture. I hope it's more informative now.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Much better. Thank you.Martin Turner 15:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Parentage and Decendantry

As far as I have ever known Morgan Le Faye came from a very magical background.How is it that people presume her mother had no magical powers of her own.When her three daughters all held incredibally strong powers.Also MOrgan is a decendent of the Lady of the Lake who is as far as I have ever known is the sister of Vivian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.86.65.132 (talk • contribs)

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but I've never heard any magical powers attributed to Morgan's mother or siblings outside of modern fiction.--Cuchullain 21:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Etymology is not an exact science. As I understand the myths, "morgaine" is a title, as is "merlin", and means "woman from the sea",i.e. Atlantis. 'fey' is an old word that means "touched" as "in the head", and "morgana of the fairie-folk" has become known as Morgana la Fey. I also read in a 10 pound dictionary that "fey" means 'to cleanse', so go figure. MorganaSage says so, says,so. Blessed Be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morganasage (talk • contribs)

Morgan is not a title, it's a name, and "Fay" is the French word for fairy. And I very much doubt Atlantis had anything to do with the development of the character.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I offer the following excerpts from my blog as request for pardon from any percieved discrepancies of my gnostic beliefs:

Sage's Equation,3/29/06

"Reality" is each Individual's own place in Time. Smallish MINDs (like mine) get boggled by the details, and feel compelled to fabricate myth and fantasy in order to establish a link to the Cosmic Comedy, and find REASON to contemplate tha NATURE of Self-Importance.

Sapho's Reply by Rita Mae Brown, c.1975 My voice rings down thru thousands of years, to coil around your bodies and give you strength, YOU who have wept in direct sunlight, YOU who have hungered for invisible things, YOU who have marched to the cadence of My Legacy: AN ARMY OF LOVERS SHALL NOT FAIL!!!

My point in submitting this content??? We are discussing Legends, Myths, and Fantasies, NOT historical Dogma, and it's my opinion that any insights into "folk-memories" should be valued for the spirit in which they are shared, not criticized by a judgmental *authority". morganasage says so,says so. Blessed Be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morganasage (talk • contribs)

This is an encyclopedia, not a discussion group -- the content is supposed to reference actual written works or sources that can be properly referenced. Original insights and interpretations are great but have no place here. If you analyze the literary record of the Morgan le Fay character, you will find that Cuchullain knows what he's talking about. Your assertions about Morgan's family and the Lady of the Lake etc. seem to be a composite of the many modern adaptations of the Arthurian legends in television, film and fiction. TAnthony 21:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Morgan LeFay...the Goddess?

I came to this article expecting to learn about Morgan LeFay, as in, the Welsh Goddess of Death, Fate, the Sea and of Curses. Any help? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.167.233.7 (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Sorry, Morgan was not a goddess. She was a fictional magician, as you can read in the article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe you're thinking of the Morrígan. TAnthony 00:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Genealogy

I think it is notable, though perhaps apocryphal, that today's Rhys/Rice family traces their lineage back through Uryan and Margaret La Faye. This genealogy obviously influenced the claim that Morgan le Fay was wed to a Urien. Here's an interesting URL that describes Lord Rhys, a bit of his genealogy, and Dinefwr Castle. It also mentions Margaret La Faye. There are lots of other references about this genealogy online if you wanted to peruse the entire pedigree. I will leave this to the page author to include as he or she sees fit. The URL to the castle web site is http://llandeilo.org/dp_middle.php. --Pulsadinura 18:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

I've read Morgan = Morgiana (she of Ali Baba fame), i.e., the legend may have come from the East... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.74.1 (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

pop culture

rs, http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Morgan_Le_Faye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.63.60 (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

A character by the same name, and loosely based on the historical verison of Morgan le Fay, is featured in the Magic Tree House series of children's books written by author Mary Pope Osbourne. Morgan le Fey is referred to as a "magic librarian" in the series, and presents the protagonists with quests to complete that further the narrative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proxytoaster (talk • contribs) 13:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The Magic Tree House Books also specify that she is an enchantress from Camelot. Other Arthurian characters also make appearances throughout the series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.166.43.25 (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

There is also a character in the Stargate series that, within the series, is the real Morgan le Fay. The series often pulls characters and their backgrounds from our history, and then modifies it on the pretense of "What if they weren't human, but alien?" In the series, she was originally an antagonist to Merlin, but later, his protector. http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Morgan_Le_Fay —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.85.28 (talk) 04:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, the Warhammer Fantasy Universe. Throwaway85 (talk) 10:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

BlueMichaela (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)Which legend do we derive the black birds or ravens that associate with her? The artist Amy Brown represents her as a Fairy with the black birds often associated with the mythology https://amybrownart.com/products/watercolor-painting-morgan-le-fey?_pos=1&_sid=b1d54e875&_ss=r

Merlin

Since a new interpretation of Morgan/Morgana is currently at the centre of a popular TV series airing worldwide, I think it's justifiable to include her in the "later interpretations" section. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 12:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It's no more notable than the dozens or hundreds of works featuring Morgan that we don't mention - it's just more recent.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure a lot of those other works deserve mention too. I was rather expecting that the article would discuss the diversity of later interpretations and it seems a huge oversight that by and large it doesn't. --85.210.14.252 (talk) 12:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It would be one thing if anyone provided reliable, secondary sources discussing later interpretations of the character. But just listing off the myriad modern works in which Morgan appears is not particularly useful or encyclopedic.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph about the Merlin series (which is current, and being broadcast internationally, which satisfies most notability requirements right there) due to the fact the series is taking a notably different approach to the character. Wikipedia should not be elitist and discount sources that are notable - an internationally broadcast television series is inherently notable - however I wouldn't be opposed to a separate article on "Interpretations of Morgan le Fay" being created (not "Morgan le Fay in popular culture" as I understand the tin hats decided to ban those types of articles here). The Merlin version could be included along with a number of others (there was even a Doctor Who version played by Jean Marsh at one point). 68.146.81.123 (talk) 16:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's not sourced to reliable, third-party sources, which is what we need for this section.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:05, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

In folklore

From the article:"The medieval romance Floriant et Florete places Morgan's mountain home of Montegibel on Sicily, and later Italian folklore describes Morgan as living in Mount Etna". It is not clear, however Montegibel and Mount Etna are the same mountain: Mongibello is an alternative name for Mount Etna (Mon = Monte = Mount and Gibello = Gibel an arab word). 84.222.237.182 (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Probable etymology and origin of the Morgan le Fay

A probable etymology of the word may derive an ancient Greek city of Sicily. The name Morgan le Fay with ancient place names Sicilian type the ancient city of Morgantina and the people of Morganti (both the city that the people are located where once worshiped goddesses of matrons of Sicily).In addition to this the Celtic gods of the underworld are the Goddess and the God Erecura Pater and are derived from greek-Roman deities Persephone or Kore (Persephone) and Hades (Pluto) with the same myth (the Rape of Proserpine where Pluto kidnaps Persephone takes as a wife and the door to the underworld). This myth takes place near Etna (where one of the inputs of Tartarus) on a lake Lake Pergusa where is the entrance to the world of Hades (Lake Pergusa was famous in antiquity and still is for a particular phenomenon that because of its salinity at certain times of the year its waters become dark red like a lake of blood), in this place is the ancient city of Morgantina.The city of Morgantina ( king Morgen) the seat of the cult of Demeter and Kore Persfone or (this was the center where he worshiped the goddess of fertility and the underworld that were a symbol for Sicily), this city is located next to Lake Pergusa (the sacred place where you set the myth of the rape of Persephone) and is an area near Mount Etna. Curiously roman goddess of the hunt. According to the Vulgate Merlin, had its charm, given to Diana, which caused Viviane (the Lady of the Lake) to be so tempting for Merlin. The Vulgate Lancelot tells us that she was the Queen of Sicily, but considered a goddess by his subjects pagan fools. The continuation post -vulgata Merlin describes how he killed her lover to be with another man, but then he was beheaded by this man to be a murderess. This story was later transferred to a lake in France, and was later called the Lake of Diana.--151.34.11.200 (talk) 14:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

That's interesting if true (no idea, honestly), but I removed it from the article because it needs to be sourced and written in proper English. --302ET (talk) 22:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok...sorry for my English...all that is written is true and based on etmologie and archeology. Please let you take care to add in proper English encyclopedic, thanks--151.44.157.135 (talk) 01:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Other important sources on medieval literature

There are other important medieval sources that speak of the Morgan le Fay in Sicily in addition to those already listed in folklore; in the sources is often spoken of Mount Etna indicated as Aetna, and Arabic Gibel or MontGibel, these sources are:

• Jaufre (ca.1180) Arthurian romance langue d'oc;
• La Bataille Loquifer (ca1170);
• Wolfram von Eschenbach (ca. 1210) Parzifal;
• Cat Lupet (pseudonym of an Italian poet XIII approx);--151.34.11.200 (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I removed:

Attested in Sicily in Breton and Provencal literature for example in Jaufre (an Occitan language Arthurian romance from c. 1180) and La Bataille Loquifer (c. 1170), among these, an important historical figure Breton is Ansgerio first bishop of Catania.

because I don't know how to fix it to makse sense other than I already did with some minor edits on the sentence. (I don't even know is it true or not.) --302ET (talk) 22:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Same for According to the Vulgate Merlin, had its charm, given to Diana, which caused Viviane (the Lady of the Lake) to be so tempting for Merlin. The Vulgate Lancelot tells us that she was the Queen of Sicily, but considered a goddess by his subjects pagan fools. The continuation post-vulgata Merlin describes how he killed her lover to be with another man, but then he was beheaded by this man to be a murderess. This story was later transferred to a lake in France, and was later called the Lake of Diana. --302ET (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

OK,but here you made a small mistake :

• Attested in Sicily in Breton and Provencal literature for example in Jaufre (an Occitan language Arthurian romance from c. 1180) and La Bataille Loquifer (c. 1170), among these, an important historical figure Breton is Ansgerio first bishop of Catania.

all this is true and is available online (respectively finds Morgan le Fay in Mongibel or Gibel); and Breton bishop of Catania Ansgerio : Bishop Angerius of Catania in Sicily. Catania and Caithness were often written identically. See G. W. S. Barrow, "Angerius Brito, Cathensis Episcopus", in Traditio, xxvi, (1970), p. 351.

TAKE A LOOK AT PAGE "Bishop of Caithness".

• According to the Vulgate Merlin, had its charm, given to Diana, which caused Viviane (the Lady of the Lake) to be so tempting for Merlin. The Vulgate Lancelot tells us that she was the Queen of Sicily, but considered a goddess by his subjects pagan fools. The continuation post-vulgata Merlin describes how he killed her lover to be with another man, but then he was beheaded by this man to be a murderess. This story was later transferred to a lake in France, and was later called the Lake of Diana.

This content is quoted on the sources of the voice: Bruce, Christopher W. (1999). The Arthurian Name Dictionary. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 0-8153-2865-6. Retrieved 24 May 2010.

SOURCE NUMBER 14 is available online: Looking letter "D" serch "Diana [Dyan(n)e]"

Please let you take care. is the best way to replace the contents, thanks--151.44.157.135 (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

POV SPIRITUAL

This page is dedicated to the Arthurian character from a scientific point of view-logic-literary history ... is not a text of prayers or spells Wiccan or neo-paganism ... There is no connection between the Morgan la fay and Welsh Goddess (POV neopagans wiccan) ... the page is blocked after an edit war with the user Cagwinn (Pov neo pagan wiccan). What do we do?--151.68.52.142 (talk) 00:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Wow, that's strange! Here I am thinking I am an atheist and didn't even realize that I was secretly a "POV neo pagan wiccan"! LOL! Go away, troll! The article has been locked due to your persistent vandalism and removal of material with source citations. You are the one pushing a POV here, not me! I am simply maintaining order. Cagwinn (talk) 00:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The article has been blocked for unregistered users ... but it can be modified by registered users. You talk about trolling ... what are your intentions...The problem is clear: Morgan le fay has no connection with the Welsh goddess, it is two different historical contexts. What it (Cagwinn) is inpossibile. But you have reliable sources of what you support? The reliable sources have to be of a scientific archaeological and NO anthropological-religious and wiccan-pagan ok? only sources scientific archaeological... please.--151.46.52.211 (talk) 11:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

You are ranting like a madman - you are not even making any sense! The material that you are trying to remove comes from a reliable, scholarly source (Rachel Bromwich, one of the most respected scholars in Celtic and Arthurian studies), not "wiccan-pagan" religious doctrine (or whatever it is you are imagining - hard to tell, since your English is so terrible). Cagwinn (talk) 18:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Details: What you say is very important and requires reliable sources, primary and secondary. These reliable sources are to be displayed so that everyone can check. These important origins of Morgan(Pov wiccan-pagan), not encyclopedia britannica [[1]]

• First part: "Her character may be partially derived from That of the Welsh mythology goddess Modron." reliable sources ???
• Then the second part: "Inspiration for her character came from earlier Likely Welsh mythology and literature. Additional speculation sometimes connects Morgan with the Irish goddess Morrígan, though there are few similarities between the two beyond the spelling of Their names. Instead, Morgan Has Been Opinions more sostanzialmente linked with the goddess Modron, figures derived from the continental Dea Matrona featured and with some frequency in medieval Welsh literature. " reliable sources ???
• Third part: "Modron Appears in Welsh Triad 70, in cui her children by Urien, Owain and Morfydd, are called the" Three Blessed Womb-Burdens of the Island of Britain, "and a later folktale preserved in the manuscript known as Peniarth 147 records the story Behind These conceptions Opinions more fully "(sources celtist: Rachel Bromwich).

The main problem are the points 1 and 2 that are fantasy and no reliable sources ... that is the question. You understand?!--151.18.203.114 (talk) 19:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Etymology of "Morgan"

I wonder if *mori-gena is correct. According to Albert Deshayes (Dictionnaire des prénoms celtiques) G in gena would have mutated to C'H in Breton (Morc'hen) and to Y in Welsh (Moryen). He thinks the fact that the letter remains unchanged means that it comes from Old Breton mor (great) and kann (radiance), with K mutating to G.

Also, the Breton morganez (mermaid) comes from mor (sea), kan (sing, with K => G) and -ez (feminine suffix).

Maybe one of these etymologies (or both) should be included in the article.--Aziliz Breizh (talk) 12:05, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

You have to keep in mind that the name Morgen first appears in the mid-12th century work of a man who was surely a native French speaker (Geoffrey of Monmouth) and who, despite the fact that he was writing in Latin, was still influenced by the spelling conventions of his native tongue; if we look at another Welsh personal name in Geoffrey's Vita Merlini, Thelgesinus, which is derived from Welsh Taliesin, we can see that for an Old French speaker like Geoffrey, the letter -g- when followed by -e- had a sound approximately like our English -j-, thus Morgen would have been pronounced "Morjen" by him (otherwise, if he intended it to have a hard -g-, he would have spelled the name *Morguen, as per Old French spelling conventions) and could have come to him via medieval Welsh/Middle Breton Morien (earlier spelled Morgen) or Old Irish Muirgein.Cagwinn (talk) 15:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Morgane la fée

I wonder how "Morgane la fée" (Morgane the fairy) became "Morgane le Fay"?

Same thing, no difference. Fée is the Old French spelling, while Fay is the middle/modern English spelling (the word was borrowed from Old French, mind you). Cagwinn (talk) 20:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Incomprehensible sentence

"She becomes (...) a vindictive adversary of Arthur the Round Table". What does that mean? Is there something missing between "Arthur" and "the Round Table"? The latter seems to be used as an appellative of Arthur, which makes no sense. Was it meant to be "Arthur['s] Round Table?" "Arthur [and his] Round Table?" "Arthur [at the time he had established] the Round Table"? Kumagoro-42 12:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumagoro-42 (talk • contribs)

It might need a copyedit

For grammar issues. --94.246.144.29 (talk) 17:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Question

SNAAAAKE - can we cut back the list of "other names" in the lede, and maybe just use 3 or 4 more? ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:47, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

A few there were unique, but the others have been important once and/or are popular today. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 17:41, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

SNAAAAKE!! - I'm going to nominate this article for FA. It is a worthy candidate in my view. ^{Atsme📞📧} 17:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it should be for various reasons. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 13:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

You are right, Snaaaake!! I withdrew the FAC nom and take full responsibility for not giving it a thorough nitpicking before nominating it. A peer review should have been been first. It will help tighten the prose, and achieve consistency as it relates to BrEng vs AmEng, as well as help with the sourcing issues; the latter of which is easy enough to accomplish but time consuming and tedious. I suggest using the same citation style throughout the article as what Citer uses. ^{Atsme📞📧} 13:46, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not even sure are all things factually right. The Vulgate and Post-Vulgate versions are especially complicated and confusing for many reasons. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok - I'm focused on the prose and just finished tweaking the lead. Go behind me and make sure I don't accidentally change the context. It would prove quite helpful if you will use inline templates for the information in the article that you're questioning as complicated & confusing, see Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup#Inline with superimposed text for what templates to use. I think may work best for the concerns you mentioned above. ^{Atsme📞📧} 17:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I just don't know. I was trying my best on secondary sources but I guess I should just read the original texts (like [2] & [3] and so on, as I just found in English). Like [4] is what the article has as "Later, after she hosts her nephews Gawain, Mordred and Gaheriet to heal them, Mordred spots the images of Lancelot's passionate love for Guinevere that Lancelot painted on her castle's walls while he was imprisoned there; Morgan shows them to Gawain and his brothers, encouraging them to take action in the name of loyalty to their king, but they do not do this" but she also heals them (the healer role again) and she didn't even want to tell them (or did she, because the preview ends abruptly), also the story seems to have her as a Christian?? That's just an example. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:00, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Avoid venturing into OR territory. Suggestion - take a look at this essay. It will help you transition into a summary mindset which is how the lead for the essay is presented: "Like many characters in the Arthurian legends, Morgan le Fay has been consistently transformed and interpreted by authors and artists for nearly a millennium. Her character and her narrative significance have varied widely from text to text, and while no easy description of these changes can be made, some general trends and developments can nevertheless be observed."

Sources

There are other references available that summarize/explain the discrepancies and variations - this book sells used for $5.88 but may be available in a library. Did you get my emails regarding potential book acquisitions? Also take a look at this treatment in Britannica. The aforementioned are good examples for the direction we need to go in order to trim the fat, and eliminate confusion. Don't you agree? I believe that once you wrap your head around it, the words will flow in the right direction. ^{Atsme📞📧} 00:08, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok, this edit - if you saw the 1st FAC reviewer’s comment about Mordred, it explains why I added his identity. The addition was supported by RS but I didn’t cite them in the lead...perhaps I should have. I realize Mordred is WikiLinked but it is not unreasonable to include who he is for clarity so readers don’t have to leave the page, which can be annoying. It doesn’t change context and satisfies the question raised by the FA reviewer. Keep in mind that you are an expert on this topic and far more familiar with the stories than most so such clarifications are helpful and not considered trivial detail. As for the “history” part - again, look at what the reviewer said. The changes/additions I made were to satisfy the concerns of the reviewers. ^{Atsme📞📧} 13:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Loomis on Morgan

I think there is an issue with the following sentence in the article: "According to Loomis, Geoffrey was not the original inventor of Morgan's character, which had already existed in unrecorded stories of her as Arthur's fairy savior or even also his fairy godmother as being told by wandering storytellers (as credited by Gerald of Wales) that would influence various authors writing independently from each other, especially since Vita Merlini was a little known text that only survived in one manuscript." I realize that Loomis believed this, but there is no evidence to support it and the words "which had already existed in unrecorded stories" could be confusing to readers, as we have already established a few paragraphs above that Morgen appears for the first time in Geoffrey's works and "unrecorded stories", by virtue of being unrecorded(!), should be qualified by a word such as "hypothetical", or something along those lines. Cagwinn (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I think List of Arthurian characters should be reorganized and all the tiny articles like Morgan Tud merged there as subsections each. (Like I've done with minor Round Table knights.) Should I just get and do it? Btw I also merged Balan to Balin's and various Fisher Kings to, well, Fisher King. So alternatively Morgan Tud may be just merged here. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 07:08, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Progress?

SNAAAAKE!!, ping me when you're ready to do a peer review...great work!!! ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 00:44, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it would be too much of a work to rewrite it for a GA, an effort which would be much better invested elsewhere where the articles are actually lacking or even just have no articles. --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 09:32, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

And if you're interested in what's I'm, up to I've got for example Chun-Li just rewritten & doubled in size. --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Why "le Fay" and not "la Fay"?

As far as I know, "fay" is derived from Romance "fata" which means a "goddess of fate". Therefore the gender should be female. Is there any explanation for this?--2003:CE:BBD4:D7A1:9C43:CFF4:26CF:FC8E (talk) 12:18, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

See the section Etymology and origins in this article, and this site also explains why it's le in lieu of la. Wikipedia uses the most common and/or ubiquitous name for its titles. See WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Hope that helps. SNAAAAKE!!, perhaps you should add something a bit easier for readers to find regarding why it's le in lieu of la?? ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 13:39, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Overwhelmingly dominant version [5][6] invented by Thomas Malory as noted. Actually from Old French "Morgue la fee" ("the fay"). See: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fée and https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fée_Morgane, also #Morgane la fée. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Offspring of Morgan?

Morgan has many different children across many different variations and in some versions has no children at all. What about placing a link in the children section of the infobox that leads to a new section of the article that lists Morgan’s varied children and the works from which their relation to her originates.

The infobox definitively places Yvain as a child of Morgan and combines the numerous other children she has across numerous different sources as simply “Various Others”.

Yvain was not originally or always portrayed as Morgan’s son. His mother is initially portrayed as the enchantress Modron who gives birth to him and his twin sister Morfydd who were fathered by Urien as part of a prophecy. Morfydd who was a significant Arthurian character at one point is never portrayed as Morgan’s daughter to my knowledge and the portrayal of her twin brother as Morgan’s son was a later development that was not always followed. Morgan when given a husband was first said that be the wife of Nentres rather than Urien. The 12th century work “Yvain, the Knight of the Lion” is the first to associate Morgan and Yvain and portrays them as unrelated.

Then there’s Morgan’s various other children who only exist in certain stories, I believe most are named in the article but they’re not listed together and are a pain to find. As I said above, perhaps it would be best to remove Yvain from the infobox and just place a link at children that says “varies” and connect it to a new section of the article detailing Morgan’s numerous potential offspring and what work they first appear in as her child. It’s more accurate and makes the information much easier to locate for the reader. That would IMO be a definite improvement to the article. GladeMist (talk) 00:20, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Here’s the list of Morgan le Fay’s children named across various sources. All are already mentioned at different points throughout the article. Given that there’s a whooping 17 of them, perhaps a chart of them would work best. Put “See Here” or something in the infobox and direct the reader to the chart. Besides their names/identities, we can include information like first appearance as Morgan’s child, the identity of the father when available, gender, etc.

As the article currently stands this information is hard to find and I don’t believe Yvain should get special treatment by being named in the infobox, while “various others” is used to fill in for her other potential children. Yvain’s not the first Arthurian character to be named Morgan’s child nor does he always appear as such.

1.Unnamed Son by Guiomar

2.Morganette

3.Passelion (adopted)

4.Ywain

5.Beuteusell

6.Marlyn (Meurvin)

7.Unnamed Son by Ogier

8.Oberon (alternatively her brother)

9.Merlin (yes THAT Merlin)

10.Corban

11.The Merry Maiden

12.Gaia Donzella

13.Floriant (adopted)

14.Carvilia

15.Morganetta

16.Nivetta

17.Mordred GladeMist (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Magic tree house 142.118.77.216 (talk) 22:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)