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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 02:59, 8 October 2007.

Leonardo da Vinci

[edit]

self-nom This is an essential article which was once of FA status, but lost it. It has now been entirely worked over by an achitectural historian, with much other valuable input and discussion. It has gained a more detailed and better balnced biography and a broad description of the history and development of Leonardo's paintings,(his greatest claim to fame, but previously ignored in the article).Amandajm 06:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment First few bodies of text in the Florence — Leonardo's artistic and social background section do not cite sources. Please add sources. The same is needed for the entire Leonardo’s painting section. 48 references is a bit on the low end for such a large article, so I think you should add sources, wherever necessary, throughout the article. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There were about 65 references. Many of the authors were cited several times.  DoneThere are now a great many more. However, I wish to point out that dozens of inline citations are complete unecessary unless the material being presented is likely to be challenged. eg. that Leonardo was charged and aquitted with sodomy needs appropriate ciation. That he was employed making a large statue for the Duke of Milan is not likely to be challenged, as long as the writer of the article has consulted a large number of reliable books.
  • Oppose - At a quick glance, there's several problems - Images are scattered all over the place and very distracting;
response, images are placed, for the most part alternately as per wiki style, with images carefully arranged in order to look inwards rather than outwards on the page.

Image captions are uniformative, occasionally consisting of two or three words;

reply. The images have the title of the work. Almost every image relates directly to the text that is nearest to it. The text and the images are integrated, not random.

There are one sentence paragraphs ...

There are several one sentence paragraphs. They occur within the biography at a time when there are no records of Leonardo's life with the exception of two totally unrelated but chronologically consecutive events. There are also a number of one-line quotations by different people about Leonardo's genius.

and overall, the article looks in bad shape for a person who's supposed to be one of the most influencial ever.

Nonsense. He had fame, not influence. Leonardo was an influential painter, as was his younger contemporary, Michelangelo. He wasn't influential in any other field. His work remained unpublished and with little influence, with the exception of a few inventions that passed into industry without acknowledgement. Many years after his death, his work on anatomy was published for art students.

This of course, is all at a quick glance, but I'm sure I'll find more stuff when I looked more thouroughly tomorrow - It's really alte now, so I'm gonna head off, but I'll be back tomorrow with more detail. Cheers, Spawn Man 11:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I think you just showed the "How not to reply to an opposer on FAC" side of things. As I said, it's late and I didn't go into specifics. Who knows? I could've come back in the morning feeling that the article was indeed FA worthy, but due to your highly defensive responses, I doubt that'll happen now. In regard to influence, I meant now, not at the time he was alive. Plus I was refering to a poll I read where he was in the top 10 of most influencial people of the last 2,000 years. IMO, one sentence paragraphs are not acceptable. This is explained in Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout#Headers_and_paragraphs, which says they should be minimised, but not to make another paragraph overly long. Considering the amount there are and the fact they'd not be making any other paragrpah overly long if they were merged, I'd suggest you take a look at what you can achieve before morning etc... The image placement can slide for now, but some of the captions are so unimformative. They don't give dates or extra information. A good caption can really make an article great. As I said, it's late right now, so I'll drop by in the morning with a list of stuff. Don't freak out, you'll have more stuff to do. :) Cheers, Spawn Man 12:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response Spawn Man, I'm a 60 year old mother of four adults, whose been a teacher all my life. I'm not interested in playing stupid power games. I can't be bothered with smart put-downs like "Hmm, I think you just showed the "How not to reply to an opposer on FAC" side of things." I'm of the opinion that a little power can equate with a great deal of self-importance. If you leave messages that are rude and ignorant in tone, then don't expect others to dance to your tune, out of fear that you have the power to give them a "bad mark"!
A large number of people have collaborated on the article, and most aspects of it have remained the same for months. These are not stupid people, these people who have contributed and diligently protected it from vandalism. There are a lot of people who have an interest in making the article as good as possible, and whose assessment is very different to yours. These are the people that you stand to offend, not simply by making suggestions for improvement, but by being rude, arrogant and dismissive of the work of others. Have you got any idea how rude it is to dismiss something "at a quick glance"? Why should anybody give a stuff whether you come back to look at it or not?
Concerning Polls, they are almost always directed at the ignorant. Leonardo da Vinci was indeed very influential as an artist. But regardless of what the ordinary person in the street might think, outside the realm of painting, his influence was small. Most of his scientific work remained hidden and unknown until it had been surpassed by others. Michelangelo had far more clout. He influenced painting to a degree comparative to Leonardo, but he also revolutionised sculpture, and greatly influenced architecture.
Can I suggest that we ought to have a reviewer here who has some expertise in the field of Art History?
Incidentally, I have expanded a number of the picture captions, at your suggestion, despite the rude manner in which it was made. Amandajm 16:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, you win; I can't really be bothered arguing with you when you're obviously on the defensive. Would you rather I made suggestions at all? Frankly, I fail to see where I 1) Was rude. 2) Was ignorant. 3) Called you or others stupid (Judging by your remark - "These are not stupid people"). 4) Was arrogant. 5) Was dismissive of your work. And sincerly, I'm a little offended by your remarks "Concerning polls, they are almost always directed at the ignorant" & "Can I suggest that we ought to have a reviewer here who has some expertise in the field of Art History?" - This implies that I'm ignorant and that my opinion is not good enough. If you want art historians to comment on articles, there's always Citizendium; besides, do you really know I don't have experience in art history? You must have a different view on the phrase "At a glance" - It was late, I saw this FAC, decided to comment, pointed out the obvious things and was going to return today to provide a full and detailed suggestion rationale. I fail to see how this is dismissive as I stated my intentions of coming back in the morning, giving you a general thrust of what my concerns would be at that time. I'm sorry if you felt that I was commenting on your character, but please know, I was only commenting on the content of the article.
If you feel the urge, please do call me ignorant and dismissive and arogant. If it allows me to get on with the job at hand which is commenting on an FAC, which I've done many times before and many ti8mes after, I'll gladly accept it. You've got a completely wrong take on me Amandajm; although my feelings are hurt, it's annoying to myself that I've had to spend all this time defending myself against your hurtful remarks when I could have been discussing article faults with you in a civilised manner. I'll pay it no mind, and let's get on with the job shall we?
Reply Why spend you time defending yourself, when "Sorry for my rudeness." can be said in four words, and clear the air entirely? I'm now going to take a look at you suggestions.Amandajm 06:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, first off, I'm glad you followed my advice and expanded the captions - they'rre really starting to get there. However, I was thinking along the lines of adding dates to the painting, if the date is known. It just adds that extra detail which featured articles have. Anyway, I'll make a list of problems which will make it easier for you to tick off as you go:
1) Captions - Looking good, but I'd love to see them with dates if they can be added.
2) There are too many opening paragraphs. Try to merge them or cut off content which is already in the main body of the article - For example, the first three paragraphs could easily be merged as they encompass a similar subject from Vinci's carreer.
3) The openings to the second and third paragraphs sound too similar. "The illegitimate son of a notary, Messer Piero, and a peasant girl, Caterina, Leonardo had..." & "Born near Vinci in the region of Florence, Leonardo was...". If you merged the two, you could eliminate this repetition of the "Born in yada yada, Leo was" or "Son of yada yada, Leo had".
4) In the fifth opening paragraph (Ideally there should be 2-4 opening paras, not 6), the text "Nevertheless these few works, together with his notebooks, which contain drawings, scientific diagrams, and his thoughts on the nature of painting, comprise an unmatched contribution to later generations of artists." needs to be sourced as it is making a claim.
Response I have just expanded the intro, since it has been criticised for being too short! Can't please everyone! I'll try to incorporate your suggestions.
 Done
5) The image of the Mona Lisa is in an aesthetically bad position. For one of his most famous works, it's sitting there just below the opening in no-man's land with no text by it and below the info-box. This is kinda bad placement and should be moved somewhere else. Maybe you can get rid of some of the other pictures to make room (An article doesn't need to be crammed with every picture there is simply because you can. As the saying goes; less is more... :)
Response. I would prefer to illustrate ever work that is actually discussed, which is not all of them by any means. Point is, he's one of the world's most famous painters. The aim is to show his "painterly journey" so to speak. With a different topic, illustrations would not be vital, but in an art article they are.
The article also needs to illustrate some of his other interests (anatomy etc) and preferably some bographical material where available (not much). The section on Florence has some general pics about the influences in that city.
6) There are too many one sentence paragraphs or short paras in the article - They are in the sections "Early life, 1452–1466", lots and lots in "Verrocchio's workshop, 1466–1476", "Old age", one shortish one in "Personal life", a one sentence paragraph in "Journals", another one sentence para in "Scientific studies", "Anatomy" & the opening to "List of Leonardo's paintings". One sentence paragraphs are a deal breaker; while shorter paragraphs are not great, they're not as completely non-negotiable as one sentence paragraphs. These really need to be merged, deleted or expanded. Don't be afraid to merge paragraphs to save the citations or to make paragraphs quicker to read. For example the para "Although Verrocchio appears to have run an efficient and prolific workshop, few paintings can be ascertained as coming from his hand. And on one of those, according to Vasari, Leonardo collaborated." could quite easily be merged to the lower one as they both relate to one another and could be rewritten to flow easily.
 Done
7) The text "At this time Leonardo wrote an often-quoted letter to Ludovico, describing the many marvellous and diverse things that he could achieve in the field of engineering and informing the Lord that he could also paint." in "Professional life, 1476–1519" needs a source, as well as the sentence "In 1495 the bronze was used for cannons to defend the city from invasion under Charles VIII." further in the same section.
 Done
8) In the "Old age" section, there's a large protion of uncited material - "next to the king's residence at the royal Chateau Amboise. It was here that he spent the last three years of his life. The King granted Leonardo and his entourage generous pensions: the surviving document lists 1,000 écus for the artist, 400 for Count Francesco Melzi, (his pupil, named as "apprentice"), and 100 for Salaino ("servant"). In 1518 Salaino left Leonardo and returned to Milan, where he eventually perished in a duel." It all needs a source, as text this big needs to have come from somewhere. Also, the quote further down in the same section "Some twenty years after Leonardo's death, François was reported by the goldsmith and sculptor Benevenuto Cellini as saying: No man ever lived who had learned as much about sculpture, painting, and architecture, but still more that he was a very great philosopher." also needs a source.
Reply I don't know who wrote this. I don't have the sources.
Very likely in the Autobiography - link to online text at his article. Johnbod 22:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
9)In the "Assistants and pupils" section, "...nicknamed Salai or il Salaino ("The little devil), was described by Giorgio Vasari as "a graceful and beautiful youth with fine curly hair, in which Leonardo greatly delighted"." needs a source.
Reply Vasari is mentioned in an early paragraph as a 16th century biographer. he is well known, linked to an article and quoted frequently.
Can link to Vite, which links to online text. Johnbod 22:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Further down "The Mona Lisa was bequeathed to Salaino by Leonardo, and in Salaino's own will it was assessed at the high value of £200,000." needs a source too. All this uncited material is problematic too.
Reply' I don't have the source of these figures. Prob. same editor who also wrote about the pensions.
10) Both of the opening paragraphs in "Leonardo’s painting" are unsourced! That's two whole paragrpahs unsourced! An article should aim to be 80%-100% sourced, but this article has sufficiantly less.
Reply These are very general statements of the type that every High school art teacher makes. They are a broad summary of every book that has ever been written, and not a direct quote from anything.
11) The paragraph starting with the sentence "Leonardo chose to paint an apocryphal moment of the infancy of Christ when the Infant..." in "Paintings of the 1480s" needs sourcing.
 Done
12) "The most famous painting the 1490s is Last Supper, also painted in Milan. The painting represents the last meal shared by Jesus with his disciples before his capture and death. It shows, specifically the moment when Jesus has said "one of you will betray me."" in the "Paintings of the 1490s" section needs sourcing - Who said it's the most famous painting in the 1490s? Further down the section there's a paragraph starting with "When finished, the painting was acclaimed as a masterpiece of design and characterisation...", that opening sentence alone needs a source (Who acclaimed it?), let alone the rest of the paragraph.
Reply It should read "Leonardo's most famous painting of the 1490s..." As for who acclaimed the painting- everyone who ever saw it!
OK! Vasari will do.
RE Referencing. This nit-picking problem is caused by the non-acceptance that an entire section, of several paragraph, may be drawn from a single source. I could simply cite the same three authors after almost every single sentence, because they all provided similar information and statements to the effect that "On unveiling the painting was hailed as the greatest work in Milan and perhaps the world". The easiest way to reference this stuff is simply to put all the references for which agreed and totally non-contentious material is taken, at the foot of each section, but it seems that this wont do.
If there are two paragraphs about a given painting, and two references at the end of the last paragraph, then all the info, is drawn from, and agreed on by those sources.
13) There is two external links in the "Journals" section - No external links should be in the main text. Also, there's yet more unsourced text; two paragraphs infact.
Response They're not mine. Will do
14) There's more unsourced text in "Anatomy" (2 paragraphs...).
15) In the section "Engineering and inventions", the sentence "On January 3, 1496 he unsuccessfully tested a flying machine he had constructed." definitely needs sourcing.
Reply Don't know where this comes from. I'll search.
16) "Leonardo, the "Legend"", "Vasari's "Lives"" & "List of Leonardo's paintings" all have tonnes of uncited text.
Reply So introducing a paragraph with "Giorgio Vasari, in his "Lives of the Artists", in its enlarged edition of 1568...." isn't called a citation?
Link (disamed) to Vite, which links to the full online text (in Italian). Johnbod 22:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The list of Leonardo's painting, unless otherwise cited, refers repeatedly to the research of a single scholar who is otherwise fully cited and whose details are given in full in the bibliography.
 DoneI think this is dealt with the problem
17) I'm not too keen on the whole "listy" element of the lower sections ("On Leonardo's genius",
 Done It definitely looks better.
"List of Leonardo's paintings") You could easily turn this into prose paragraphs, which would definitely be a lot better. Listy areas should be avoided.
Response. I believe that for clarity's sake, this is best left as a list, even though it is essentially a list that provides additional info. Now that the previous section is no longer all broken up into little bits, the list form of this section is no longer competeing and distractive.
18) I'm really not keen on the famous painting The Last Supper being waaay down in the "See also" section. Move it to the text sections up above as it's much more important than other pieces in the main body of the article (Much like the problem with the mona lisa picture.)
Reply, I'll rejig them somehow.
19) "Notes" should be "Footnotes".
Response is there a way, and is it advisable to separate those things which are fotenotes and those which are citations?
20) The picture of Ginevra de Benci looks really out of place way down in the "Further Reading" section - it makes the article look crammed full of pictures that you're willing to put them anywhere; the see also section, footnotes sections, in mid air after the opening... etc etc.
Yeah, She's a sulky-faced bitch! She really wouldn't be happy wherever she was!
21) The whole "External links" section needs cleaninf up (For example, there's one link which reads - ", Leonardo da Vinci fingerprint reconstructed"; note the comma before the actual writing.)
Oh not that bloody fingerprint again.... it probably belongs to the Fat Friar or the Bloody Baron
So overall, you've got a tonne of work to do. The main areas of problems are: Image placement. Uncited text - there's a lot of it! Small paragraphs. External links in the text. Listy elements. I'd also suggest getting a good copyeditor to go through the whole article (I'd suggest User:Circeus; he's really good. I really mean one of the best...), as most of the problems up there are without going too deep into the actual prose and sentence structure. So before you start defending/attacking, please note that I just want to be able to comment on the FAC and make Vinci into a great article. In fact, a featured article. It's not good enough now, but if you follow most of the points up there, it'll be featured in no time. Well, that's just my arrogant, ignorant, dismissive, not art historian experienced opinion anyway... Regards, :) Spawn Man 04:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KK, I'll write back when you've done some more. As I said, I don't feel I was rude; but I've already said that & won't again. I'll address some points: "I have just expanded the intro, since it has been criticised for being too short! Can't please everyone! I'll try to incorporate your suggestions." - I wasn't saying cvut it down completely, rather rewrite it and merge. Done For expressing all his works - This is not needed; an article link is all that's needed, but what I'm really trying to get at is the fact that famous paintings such as the mona lisa and last supper, are both in peculiar palces in the article where they could be much better utilized. In regard to "It should read "Leonardo's most famous painting of the 1490s..." As for who acclaimed the painting- everyone who ever saw it!" -  DoneStill, this really needs a source otherwise it's just heresay. "There is some material here that I had nothing to do with. It can be hard to track down source unde those circumstances." - Yup, happens a lot with me. I rewrite an article and keep some of the stuff which sounds good; however usually I can't find a source and in the end, I delete it and replace it with something else. Heart breaking, but the article benefits. "So introducing a paragraph with "Giorgio Vasari, in his "Lives of the Artists", in its enlarged edition of 1568...." isn't called a citation?" Not in my view; that's either a reference to a book which needs to be cited so we can make sure the text isn't false, or either it's a harvard reference. Done You can't have both harvard and footnote style references in an article, so it'd have to be changed anyway. But, I think it's a reference to a reference, so yes, it still does need a source. I see you've deleted some of the quotes further down the article; although this is better, you've left one which sticks out like a sore thumb. Done(deleted) I'd suggest depleting that quote as well like you've done with the others or bring back the other quotes, but suppliment them with more text this time so they don't look listy. In regard to leo's paintings; yes this'd look better as a list on second thought, but it definitely needs tidying up (It looks a bit shambly...). "is there a way, and is it advisable to separate those things which are fotenotes and those which are citations?" - Yes there is. However, I'm no formatting whiz. The copyeditor User:Circeus used it when rewriting one of my articles, so you could potentially ask him if he divulge his secrets with you. It's something to do with formatting the reflist template or soemthing... "She's a sulky-faced bitch! She really wouldn't be happy wherever she was!" - I'd suggest deleting her then; she's not with any accompanying text and only serves to clutter the article. Anyway, as I said, I'll report back when more's been done. Thanks for attempting to remain civil again (Despite the accusations of being rude - no idea where this came from...); it's appreciated. Now I've got my own work and family to get along with. Cheers Amanda (Again, I presume it's Amanda...). :) Spawn Man 07:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I just haven't got time to read this response right now, but I will. Just to let you knw, I had previous;ly tried to edit this page with all my relevant changes , lost it all, and had to go away and do real life things. There is something I can't find now...
Thank you for drawing to my attention the exagerated statement in the intro. As I have said, Leonardo was not more influential as an artist than Michelangelo was. But within his lifetime, he had the advantage of popularity. He was charming and lovable. He was always followed by a flock of students, while Mick was a solitary man. Anyway, it is changed. Still unreferenced, but changed. Amandajm 10:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response Not all the issues raised here have been addressed yet, but most of them have, including rearrangement of pics and better placement of sulky Ginevra, deletion of half external links, refs found for other people's edits (but not all of them) not to mention tireless Graham's blitz on references.
Reply - Okay, well I'll start striking off when more stuff is done. I'm a bit confused however as you say you've cited some stuff, but they're still uncited. I'd suggest not putting {{done}} anywhere and instead let me put it there when I feel it's done. That way I can keep track of what is officially done and what you say you've done but it's still debated k? There is still one too many paragraphs in the opening section - I'd suggest merging paras 1 & 2 together. Other than that, there's still a lot of work to do - keep at it and please, the uncited material is a very big problem. That needs undivided attention - all the cosmetic stuff doesn't matter anywhere near as much as that. Cheers, Spawn Man 05:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Minor comment Does anyone else think it's weird to have the French and Italian flags given for birth/death in the infobox? Italy wouldn't exist as a country for what, another 300 years? And while France did exist then, that's not its contemporary flag. I guess the counterargument is that the familiar modern flags help readers situate the locations, but to me they give a seriously misleading impression. Not a formal object, just a thought! 4u1e 13:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply I agree entirely! But people love their little colouful symbols and stick them in wherever possible.... and a lot of people have invested in this article so I try not to tread on all their toes. The fact that I have just deleted half the external links, or moved them over to the page about Little Lenny's personal life is enough to cause grief! And trivia! Did you know they found his finger print on a painting? And it proves conclusively that he picked his nose with his left hand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amandajm (talk • contribs) 13:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a thought, why not replace with:
That would be rather less of an anachronism, and would keep the flags. 4u1e 16:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The info-box is not obligatory at all in any FA, as all information therein should be contained in the first paragraph of the lead. The Italian flag is certainly meaninless too in this situation, I can assure you that Leonardo was not waving it at football matches while singing "L'Inno di Mameli". In my opinion it needs to go. Giano 06:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I think all info-boxes should be banned at FA level, but that is probably a personal view. Johnbod 22:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Q. Are we agreed that it should go then? I hate the blinking things? Will there be outrage if we remove it? Amandajm 12:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:You seem to have nominated a lot of pages recently claiming they are written by architectural or art historians. I find this concerning as I see no well known architectural historians in the history. Bearing in mind that Wikipedia has to be beyond reproach in its claims - I would like to know who these people are and their proven qualifications (or list of publications) to be so termed. If these facts are not available I don't think the claim of qualified authorship should be made. I have commented in full on only one of your nominations as I feel you should concentrate on one page at a time. Multiple nominations are discouraged. Giano 13:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, considering she suggested I shouldn't give my opinion above as I wasn't an art historian - as I said, if you want experts, go to Citizendium... Spawn Man 05:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Response Spawn Man, I have responded positively to your opinions, regardless of having a beef at you for your manner. Get over it!
        • Giano, I was rather rude to you, about....was it a year ago?... because I mistakenly associated you with some unpleasantness by another editor. I always welcome any suggestions you make or help you might give. I have taken your advice about removing most of the nominations and I will definitely take a look at your comments before putting up another FAC.... so, get on with it!
Amanda, may I remind you to remain civil without comments such as "Get over it!" & "...so, get on with it!"? It only shows you're not coping under the stress of the FAC. Personally, there's too much work to be done on this article right now - you should withdraw and come back after everything's been fixed. Just now you've said that some of the dates are wrong; that is another major issue and will take major fixing. Especially if the text with incorrect dates was cited, therefore suggesting that either your citations were wrong or the person who added them lied about what they said. But that's just my view - don't think of it as being defeated if you withdraw your nom. But as I said, there's simply waay too much work to be done. Cheers, Spawn Man 02:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response just to repeat it- I know that from time to time dates are changed by a smart vandal. It can be very hard to identify as vandalism when it happens.
The other problem is that dates differ. The dates that I have, for the death of Leonardo's apprentice Salai differ by two year, 1523 and 1525. He is variously reported to have been murdered, or to have died in a duel, to have died of a sword wound or a gunshot wound. I can source all these statements. Take your pick!
The other problem is that I am continually trying to source things that other people have written. The dates and wording of my sources may differ slightly from theirs. However, I am loathe to just chuck out material that adds to the article, whether or not I can locate the source.
There are problems of interpretation. For example, my translation of Vite says Verrocchio was "embarrassed", while the earlier translation, available online, says he was "angry". I have cited my source, but it's also important to have the online source given as a link, because of its accessibility.
We are dealing with event that happened 500 years ago. They were not all recorded, and new information comes to light all the time. Leonardo was quite mobile during most of his life. So if one writes that in a certain year he was in Florence working on a project, and that in the same year, he was in Milan working on a project, the two are not mutually exclusive.


Comments Oppose

  • "Returning to Florence in 1500, he entered the services of Cesare Borgia," A source I have to hand, Worldly Goods by Lisa Jardine, says he was employed by Cesare in 1502, and then the Soderini in Florence in 1503, which included his failed project to divert the Arno.
    • Response, I have just been through most of this article and compared it with a source that cites documentary evidence for every date that it gives. I have discovered that several dates are out by one or two years. I can't explain the reason. I don't know whether a sorce has been in error but wonder if it's a smarter than average vandal. There has been someone around specifically changing dates in that manner.
      • Dates my sources say 1502 for Cesare Borgi. Don't know where the 1500 date came from.
  • "In 1495 the bronze was used for cannons to defend the city" Jardine says it was diverted to Duke Ercole d'Este of Ferrara for cannons in 1494. Could you check your source on these, please. It's certainly possible that the bronze was diverted in 1494, and the cannons used in 1495, for example.
Reply The bronze was allocated to d'Este on 17th November 1494, with only 30 shopping days left till Christmas....
  • Please give page numbers for references.
    • It's too long. The article has over 150 references apart from footnotes.
  • "Verrocchio, overwhelmed by the sweetness of the angel’s expression, its moist eyes and lustrous curls, put down his brush and never painted again" is referenced to Vasari. An online translation of Vasari gives "he managed it so well that Lionardo's angel was better than Andrea's figures, which was the cause of Andrea's never touching colours again, being angry that a boy should know more than he." Please look into your source.
    • Response My translation says that he was ashamed, rather than angry. The flowery language has gone...
  • "From 1513 to 1516, Leonardo lived in Rome, where Raphael and Michelangelo were both active at the time. In Florence, he was part of a committee formed to relocate, against the artist’s will, Michelangelo’s statue of David." The version of Vasari I used above confirms he was in Rome, makes no mention of him being in Florence, and appears to have no mention of the statue, although it says "There was great illfeeling between him and Michael Angelo Buonarroti" Again, please look into your source.
    • Response Located a source. It was Michelangelo not Vasari.
  • I haven't examined the 6 other uses of Vasari as reference.

J.Winklethorpe talk 23:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more quibbles with the Vasari refs:
  • "Vasari also tells us that in his last days, Leonardo sent for a priest to make his confession and to receive the Holy Sacrament." My version of Vasari says "At last, having become old, he lay ill for many months, and seeing himself near death, he set himself to study the holy Christian religion, and though he could not stand, desired to leave his bed with thc help of his friends and servants to receive the Holy Sacrament." Sent for a priest vs went to a priest. It's a small matter, but the article should not be leaving the source material. Does yours say different?
Mine says that "although he could not stand up, supported by his friends and servants he received the Blessed Sacrament from his bed." One thing is for sure- he didn't go to the priest, the priest came to him. I don't feel inclined to reword this. It is plain that the decision to study religion, to repent and to take the sacrament were Leonardo's decision. I don't imagine that some priest just stumbled up his stairs carrying the Communion vessels uninvited. If the priest was in Leonardo's home, he was there as the guest of Leonardo.
OK, your version makes it clear that he remained in his room, whereas mine could be taken either way. Resolved. J.Winklethorpe talk 11:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Leonardo was commissioned to make a centrepiece (a mechanical lion)[13] for the peace talks between the French king and Pope Leo X in Bologna." Again, the version I have says "In his time the King of France came to Milan, and Lionardo was entreated to make something strange for his reception..." So Milan, not Bologna, and nothing about peace talks.
ReplyThis is one of the numerous passages that have been written by someone else that I have tried to source. Vasari mentions the King and the Lion. I have not sourced the "Peace Talks". Maybe you would like to assist? I only have access to my own library and can't get into many relevant websites without travelling to the university.
Unfortunately, no matter who wrote the passage, it needs to be verifiably correct. I suspect my resources for sourcing things are less than yours. My concern is that, even with the small number of things I have been able to check, a lot of issues have appeared. J.Winklethorpe talk 11:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Peace Talks between Leo X and Francois I were in Bologna, in 1515. [1]
OK so the true story on this one seems to be that no one really knows when the thing was first used. Leonardo doesn't describe it. One person who describes it, or something modelled on it, in detail, was Mickel Angel-babe Bunny-ratty Jnr, would you believe?
Re:Vasari, one of the leetle problems is that he writes in the most haphazard way possible, as in: The king went to Milan. Leonardo made the lion. Milan was where Leonardo met Salai. Salai was a pretty boy with golden curls. He taught him painting. ...These things are all in the same paragraph, regardless of chronological order. It's as if Vasari just drops things in whenever he thinks of them. Salai had been with Leonardo since 1491!
OK, so there's disagreement in the sources. You have two choices: Leave out the passage, or give the reader the conflicting options. You appear to have chosen to leave it out. J.Winklethorpe talk 22:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Actually, Vasari gives the same description, so I'll go with the vasari description and use the other reference as evidence that we don't really know what event it was constructed for.
More re Vasari It's acknowledged that Vasari's manner of dropping in disconnected info can be problematical. It's as if, having mentioned Milan, he suddenly remembers Salai. It doesn't matter if what you want is an entertaining read, but if you are trying to get a chronology, then it can be disconcerting, every time he takes a jump backwards in history. We just have to keep remembering that Vasari wasn't subject to any sort of discipline in writing his biographies; he was not constrained to be systematic. So he puts in various stories, as they come to him. Amandajm 07:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "François was reported by the goldsmith and sculptor Benevenuto Cellini as saying: "No man ever lived who had learned as much about sculpture, painting, and architecture, but still more that he was a very great philosopher." whereas the actual source says "According to the sculptor Benvenuto Cellini, the king believed that no other man "knew as much as Leonardo. . . in the spheres of painting, sculpture and architecture" and "that he was a very great philosopher" as well." Again, it's minor, but what is presented as a direct quote is actually two quotes slightly modified.
ReplyI didn't write this. I have searched for a source in order to be able to cite it. I imagine, since it is a direct quote, that the editor who wrote it had access to a fuller version than I am able to locate.
It's an online source, given in the article. That's why I was able to quote it to you just now. What the article gives as a direct quote is in fact fashioned from two quotes. J.Winklethorpe talk 11:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. The quotation was in the article, unsourced. I searched for a source and the only one that I located was the one that I added. I could not find the total, undivided original. I gave the source that I had, as indiction that, infact,, Cellini did say that the King said words to that effect. Presumably the original editor had an entire quotation. I'm not prepared to remove the entire quotation, which is of more value than the one broken into pieces by another party! That seems ridiculous, since the citation that I have given indicates that the whole exists, even if it hasn't fully quoted it. Particluarly as the source that breaks it into sections has considerable lessened the force of the statement about him being a philosopher. However, this was the best citation I could come up with.
Meanwhile, my search turned up another source which quotes the entire statement, more accurately. However, the quotation differs in wording, because it is obviously translated by someone else, and the English is more clumsy. But I have gone with the clumsy version, because at least it is complete.
A direct quote supported by a source. Perfect. Just to address your first comments about finding the source: In my opinion, replacing the quote if you couldn't verify it is exactly what you should have done. Presumptions about prior editors just aren't safe. Hence the dates issue. J.Winklethorpe talk 22:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I'm concerned by what you found regarding the dates used in the article, in addition to things like the article misplacing him in Florence (and possibly in Bologna).
Reply He was def-I-night-ly in Bologna.... and he couldn't mistake it, even with his eyes shut....and if you think he could, then you've never smelt the drains in Bologna...
Checked

Here's where I am: a check of basic facts, and one of the available sources, revealed significant errors in the article. Inline references lack page numbers, so it is difficult to check them. I cannot say with confidence that this article meets FA criteria 1c, and so I am opposing until my concerns are allayed. J.Winklethorpe talk 09:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Oppose, I'm afraid, needs work as per above, especially with the inline citing. I recommend a tour round Peer review and/or GA review for detailed help and tips, before the article is returned to FAC.

I also have prose concerns: the grammar ("As a painter, Salaino’s work is generally considered to be of less artistic merit than others among Leonardo's pupils...") and some awkward constructions ("But its artist was also denounced for the fact that it was no sooner finished than it began to fall off the wall") need attention.

rewrote this 06 Oct

More seriously, so does the paragraph structure, which is sometimes quite desultory. A paragraph needs a topic. The professional and encyclopedic paragraph structure is one that starts with a general statement or broad brushstroke (to be technical, a "topic sentence") and goes on to develop it. If the first sentence is instead disconnected from the rest, as in for instance the paragraphs beginning "In a Quattrocento workshop...", "It is assumed that Leonardo had his own workshop in Florence between 1476 and 1481..." (especially that one, which immediately goes on to a charge of sodomy—do please re-arrange!),

Response, Try leaving the sodomy charge out and we'll have a LBW war break out again. (I'm sure it's not LBW but I can't think what it is...)

"Leonardo commenced his apprenticeship with Verrocchio in 1466...", then coherence and forward movement suffer. Some such paragraphs can probably be simply re-arranged, while others need to go back to the drawing-board altogether. It doesn't help that there are many short paragraphs.

Response, Yes, you have put your finger on a problem. A lot of citable biographical information comes in short sentences that say: In 1476 blah happened. In 1480 blah happened and in 1485 Leonardo went to Blahdeblah.
One either has to chose between one-sentence paragraphs or longer, disjointed paragraphs. The other possibility is to write longer paragraphs with a pertinent opening sentence followed by several sentences of unsupported waffle. Which approach do you recommend as being the best? Tell you what! We'll make it a cooperative effort! I'll provide the leading sentence, a date, and a citation, and LCdB can write the waffle!
Response Please check again and make suggestions 06 Oct

Leonardo's young pupil da Oreno/Salai/Salaino needs particular attention: he appears in two different sections, and his role in Leonardo's life is not well introduced until the end of the second one ("Leonardo's most intimate relationships were with his pupils Salai and Melzi").

Changed this 06 Oct

The tone tends to be a little too personal IMO. Example: it's good to supply the various nicknames under which the handsome pupil Gian Giacomo Caprotti da Oreno was known (Salai, il Salaino); but it's not good to refer to him familiarly by varying nicknames in the text.

Response Will fix
Salai changed them all to Salai, because he painted under that name. 06 Oct

An incidental detail: is the François/Cellini quote ("No man ever lived who had learned as much about sculpture, painting, and architecture, but still more that he was a very great philosopher") syntactically incoherent in the original also? (And can we have a cite for it?)

Response I'm loathe to delete this, but I haven't as yet found the source. There are several little problems like this, including dates, which I have had trouble with and have marked as "cn" in the hope someone might come up with something.
Fixed 06 Oct


Being normally ignorant, i. e. rather vaguely informed about the subject, I've done what little I could to assist, in the shape of a light copyedit, changing many headings per WP:MOS and conservatively removing low-value or repeated links to common concepts (tank, Jesus, drawing, bird, cow, monkey, bear, Rome, Turkey...), per WP:CONTEXT. The article could probably in fact generally do with higher link density, but those links are not the good kind. Please see edit summaries for other changes and requests.

Agree, I never link that sort of stuff. I'll check it through for more pertinent links.


Bishonen | talk 19:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Thanks for the input I'm working on it. Amandajm 12:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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