Talk:Aberystwyth

Initial text

Changed the picture for a nicer one :) hypnox 02:36, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's pretty, but it doesn't really show the subject. There's no reason we can't have both. -- John Fader 02:39, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Super, thanks. -- John Fader 03:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Music

Are these bands actually relevant?

The Crimea the lead singer is from Aberystwyth but the band is from London. The Crocketts I can understand being on the page. David Mysterious seems to be relevant, perhaps more so if there were an article. Hot Puppies and The Poppies fair enough but it would be better if there were an article for The Poppies. --Aimaz 12:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Good thinking, I've taken the appropriate action. - FrancisTyers · 12:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No Radio Luxembourg? Really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.4.91 (talk) 20:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sunshine

Does anybody have a sunnier photograph rather than the drab grey one we currently have? --DafyddLlyr — Preceding undated comment added 12:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The one on the beach looks fine now. I do have a better one from Penglais Hill (Panorama), but I don't have time to find out how to put it there at the moment! TheHugmonsters 21:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Politics

Can someone add the Welsh Assembly regional seat (Mid and West Wales) to the politics list, and prehapes the Welsh Assembly consituency seat (Ceredigion)

Geraint 18:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Transport details

The transport information needs updating. I need to check on the current status of th Traws Cambria service as I am not convinced we still have a direct service to Cardiff. I will do this as soon as my dissertation is submitted unless anyone else gets a chance first. Rebeccaj munro 22:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

There is one to Cardiff, it's just not as regular. I'm from Carmarthen, and it's the same bus, the X40. I think it only goes as far as Cardiff once or twice a day, 6 days a week. I went to Cardiff on it recently. There used to be one from Bangor to Bristol, but that doesn't run anymore. 144.124.16.33 16:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

AberWiki?

Just came across http://aberwiki.org/ which says “The AberWiki is written mainly by (people) of the seafront town of Aberystwyth in west Wales. ..” Would this be an appropriate link to add to external links section? --EarthFurst 21:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd argue not, as not only is it written almost entirely by Computer Science students from the University (and so only represents a small fraction of the townsfolk) it's extremely irreverent and doesn't actually contain much about the town itself. The Pacifist 21:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Imagery / Photography

I think this article would benefit from better visuals.

I've donated a photo of the promenade/sea-front. I'm sure there are better photographers out there, perhaps they could contribute something to the Wikimedia Commons project ? --Darren Wyn Rees 19:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation

I take it the first pronunciation is supposed to be English, but it doesn't fit. Does it need to be fixed, or is it North Welsh? kwami (talk) 06:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I've made a small change to the pronunciation given the the IPA for English page, changing the ə in the first syllable to ɜ based on the 'r-coloured vowels' section. However, being a North American means that it might not reflect the 'native' way of saying it. vckeating (talk) 08:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This video has an example of how Aberystwyth is pronounced in English 17 seconds into the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceBnxkpcf3U I just googled to find this clip and have no idea what its about but it does show how Aberystwyth is pronounced in English. I have no idea how this relates to the IPA pronuciation stuff though. Polyamorph (talk) 09:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

More pronunciation, this narrater sounds a bit Welsh: http://www.screenwales.co.uk/view_video.php?viewkey=0610b44d9b9fed0ff954. Polyamorph (talk) 09:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I am by no means an expert in pronunciation, but it seems to me that the change made this morning is incorrect; i followed the link to the r-coloured vowels and i don't think it fits. If you listen to the Youtube video Jdrewitt put up, and if you hear people saying it, the r is completely linked to the third syllable of the word; in speech the second vowel, the one changed in this edit is completely r-free. So, unless a real IPA expert comes along, i believe it ought to be changed back. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 09:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey Lindsay - fair enough. I think I must have misunderstood the r-coloured vowels when I first thought about this. vckeating (talk) 19:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the stress mark in the right place in the Welsh pronunciation? Can a schwa be stressed in Welsh? — Paul G (talk) 11:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. -- Picapica (talk) 17:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there is a problem with the IPA offering, but it isn't the stress so much as the schwa itself. In other words, the stress is in the right place but, as far as i can tell, not really 'doing' IPA, just looking at the page, the vowel shouldn't be a schwa at all, but more of an i sound. The schwa actually comes more in the previous syllable, rather than the e sound shown. But, as i say, i am nowhere near an expert; is there one out there who can help? Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 09:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Im a fluent Welsh speaker, and none of the narrators in the above links pronounce 'Aberystwyth' properly. I've found a pronounciation map on the BBC, with a fluent Welsh speaker pronouncing different towns in Wales - Aberystwyth's among them. I just thought it might help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/whatsinaname/sites/howdoisay/ Cheers OwainRJ (talk) 01:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)OwainRJ

Brilliant link OwainRJ! Polyamorph (talk) 07:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Map

Does anyone have a newer map? Dyfed dosen't exist anymore, Aber's in Ceredigion now. Pescar (talk) 20:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Then what does the statement in the Dyfed article mean? Namely: "The Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 broke up Dyfed into three unitary authorities on April 1, 1996: Cardiganshire (which renamed itself Ceredigion as soon as it was able), Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, but retained Dyfed as a preserved county for purposes such as Lieutenancy." Polyamorph (talk) 17:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Far as i can tell, what it means in practice is that we live in Ceredigion, but the government calls it Dyfed ~ at least, any time i get any post from any level of government above county council level the envelope has Dyfed in the county position in the address. Cheers, Lindsay 17:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Twinned Towns

There seems to be an issue with whether St-Brieuc should be stated as being in Britanny or France, as my change from the former to the latter has been reverted by Cdhaptomos. Although I assume that the reason behind this is to link it to another 'celtic nation,' it seems to me that the tendency on the Wikipedia is to use either the state or the recognised nation as the respective indicator of where the place is. For instance, we do not put the name and flag of Hesse for the Kronberg im Taunus twinning, because it is not recognised by Germany as a constituent nation per se. I can understand that including the subregion might be legitimate in the case in the UK, for instance, where the respective nations are officially recognised, but this is clearly not the case in France. However, if I am mistaken in anything here, please let me know. --vckeating (talk) 13:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

As a compromise, would "Brittanny, France" be better? Polyamorph (talk) 14:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jdrewitt - I would accept this only if we to the same to the German link. I don't want to make a large issue over what is really a minor change, but there are political overtones to this - whether one is promoting an unrecognised 'nation' or 'people.' I have many friends from Rennes who would argue that this idea is nonsense, but obviously there are others in Brittany who feel very strongly about their uniqueness. Given this is likely a unresolvable issue, I can only appeal to consistency in this matter. I've made the change to the page based on this, but please don't take it as an imposition of my views - if you have an alternative conception that you believe makes sense, please let me know vckeating (talk) 13:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Language

I've updated the language section to reflect the census figures from all 7 wards with 'aberystwyth' in their name - penparcau, bronglais, central, north, rhiedol, south and west. I'm not completely sure if this accurately reflects the boundaries of the city itself, so if someone has a better aggregation idea please let me know. vckeating (talk) 15:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, several of the surrounding areas are part of the town (not city), which is not necessarily clearly delineated in every direction. Feanor, for example, contains Waunfawr, certainly part of Aber; Tymynach, too, on the border with Aber Gogledd, is partly in the town. I think what you wrote though, Vc?, keating? (is there a good abbreviation for your Username?), is quite well done and satisfactory. The main point i had when i edited that paragraph a while ago was to remove the claim that Penparcau is the most Welsh area. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 21:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The "in flight" map shown on British Airways flights between UK and USA alternately shows place names in English and then translated into Spanish (e.g. London - Londres), and translates the name "Aberystwyth" as "Alberto Lea". Whats all that about then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.198.33.252 (talk) 12:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation again

The Wikipedia:IPA_for_Welsh page doesn't include [ɔʏ], so the current [abɛrˈəstɔʏθ] should probably be adjusted, just for consistency. Lfh (talk) 18:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Tourist facilities / attractions

Hi recently someone deleted a load of entries in the tourist facilities / attractions section because apparently they weren't notable. However I don't think it was an issue of notability. Of course it would be better if it wasn't a list (prose would be better) but I think it is a valid statement to say that Aberystywth has a golf course, has a cinema etc. It does have these facilities so they shouldn't have been removed on grounds of notability! Polyamorph (talk) 07:07, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a directory nor is it a tourist information website. Codf1977 (talk) 07:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

No but its not about that. The fact that Aberystywth has a cinema is quite a big thing in Aber. It didn't list who owns the cinema so it wasn't advertising or publicity. Neither did it mention who owned the golf course etc. I definetly wasn't a directory. It just mentioned the word cinmea and golf course. So quoting policy won't cut it here because you have mis-interpreted the policy. It simply mentioned that it had one which in a human geography sense is actually really quite relevant. Polyamorph (talk) 08:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Added them back in. Polyamorph (talk) 08:18, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

But you would expect in a town of such a size, to have a cinema and a golf course - what makes them more notable than any other town's cinema or golf course why not include churches, libraries etc ? Codf1977 (talk) 09:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeh why not, there's no rule to say when describing a town you can't describe what the infrastructure is like. Most articles on towns/villages mention the church's. Polyamorph (talk) 10:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Briefly scanning through other town pages quite a few do include their cinema as part of the leisure/tourist facilities. I think it is quite notable that Aberystwyth has TWO cinemas that's got to be worth a mention surely?, some towns don't even have one! And as for Churches then yes - a lot of town pages do include their churches, with towns that have many they talk about numbers so it is certainly worthwhile including at least how many of each denomination. I've noticed that quite a few things were deleted from the list and I dont understand why the museum (since reinstated), the camera obscura or the two cinemas were not left in since these are notable - the castle ruins is debatable as it is included in the history section - furthermore that list should also have included the theatre at the arts centre too. There is nothing wrong with a list in wikipedia as an initial foothold but rather than slashing and burning it it should be always try to be expanded upon. Aprhys (talk) 13:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Where's the second cinema? The commodore itself is a relic and debatably could even deserve its own page. Is there a new one? Cheers Polyamorph (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

There's one at the art's centre considerably more comfortable and up to date than the one down townAprhys (talk) 23:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I am conserned that this is now not WP:NPOV and have taged the section. Codf1977 (talk) 14:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Aprhys. Certainly the camera obscura is notable since there are very few left in the country. Codf1977 I have removed the NPOV tag. There is absolutely no problem with NPOV in the section you tagged. Tagging it as such illustrates that you do not understand the policy sufficiently. A more suitable tag would be one requesting expansion of the section! Regards, Polyamorph (talk) 16:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The section reads like a Tourism Add, I do not think it is NPOV, you may disagree, however if you look at the Tag it says "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved", it is not resolved so please do not remove the tag, I have also added the tag you recommend. Codf1977 (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

if you whant to know why it reads like an add, phrases like "boasts" and "unusual persepctive of Cardigan Bay". Codf1977 (talk) 17:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the more suitable tag. However re-adding your NPOV tag is not productive. I won't remove it but I hope someone else will, if you don't like the prose then feel free to change it but there is no point in making a mountain out of a molehill! Polyamorph (talk) 17:56, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

well when I did I got shot down in flames, I am more than happy for the tag to be removed when it no longer reads like an add and it is of NPOV Codf1977 (talk) 18:01, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I have altered some of the prose. It shouldn't read so ad-like now. And no-one is "shooting you down in flames" but I'm sorry if you got that impression. Polyamorph (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the tag now, along with the line The town's economy and infrastructure is partially based on tourism. as it really does not add much to the page - it could describe most costal towns in the UK. Codf1977 (talk) 18:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, a description of the towns economy would be better dealt with in a seperate section anyway. I think a section on the economy of the town would add to the article. Polyamorph (talk) 18:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I would agree Codf1977 (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

With a lot of other towns on wiki they have a section on leisure as in what leisure facilities there are (eg. cinema, golf course etc) why don't we just rename the section Leisure/Tourism. There can be a fine line between the two, for example what about people who come to Aber for a week to play golf (they do exist!) or those who come boating at the harbour - these are tourists too.Aprhys (talk) 23:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Location

It's been a while since i've looked at this article, and i always find that brings me back with fresh eyes. I notice in the lead at the moment is the phrase that Aber "is located at the confluence of the rivers Ystwyth and Rheidol". I find it very hard to justify the word confluence for a couple of reasons: (1) they really both enter the sea at the same point, which isn't what confluence means, and (2) i think the phrase gives a false impression of the actual set-up, as the town was located by the castle, not the rivers, and the Ystwyth isn't in the town at all, anyway. I haven't changed it because, one way or another, that phrasing has been in the article for a couple of years, at least; but i offer it up for discussion, with the likelihood that i will change it unless objections are forthcoming. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 18:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

References for Aberystwyth University

The four line paragraph with a reference to Main Article on the University in which there are 52 references is more than sufficient documentation. Of course, I'm not a wikipedia lawyer so I may be wrong. IMHO, however, the lack of any discussion on this talk page qualifies this tag as "drive by tagging." John Harvey (talk) 13:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are not valid references. Every article must be cited independently and all information should be cited, if there are one or two valid references in the main university article that can be used here then they should be included. As you say, we already have a main article on the university so don't need to go into too much detail here but it would be good to discuss the university's impact on the town. There is not necessarily anything wrong with "drive by tagging" and the use of templates is a valid way of informing readers and editors that there are still parts of wikipedia that need some work. Polyamorph (talk) 08:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Rachel's Organics

Wikipedia is not meant to be used as a directory for all the businesses in and around aberystwyth. For the sentence re: Rachel's Organics to remain in this article then at least some context should be given to explain why this company, and not the hundreds of other local businesses, deserves a mention in this article about the town of Aberystwyth as a whole. It would be good to expand the tourism / local economy section but to do so requires an unbiased account of the economy as a whole, not just one relatively insignificant dairy farm. Polyamorph (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, if it is the largest private sector employer then it is suitable to list but requires a verifiable reference. I notice that the company claims this on their website but really it needs to be an impartial source giving real evidence e.g. employee numbers, comparison with other key private sector employers etc. So I've added a citation needed tag. Polyamorph (talk) 17:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I see that this has been done, good work and thanks. Polyamorph (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Physical features

Does this article need the physical features section? I have read through it a number of times, and it just seems to steal information from others more logical sections? Its got geography, buildings, history, organisations, business, community, etc. Thoughts? Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Mostly to be merged into 'Geography', I would have thought. --Woodgreener (talk) 02:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Minimum temperature

Hi, an IP user has been trying to update the minimum temperature data for November in the climate data table from -3 to -9. Considering the recent cold snap I wouldn't be surprised that record temperatures have changed, however the current table is cited using this table and hence should not be changed without reference to an equally reliable source. At present I cannot find one that lists -9 as the lowest recorded temperature. Polyamorph (talk) 17:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Name

Is anyone able to provide a citation for when the English name changed from Aberystwith to Aberystwyth. It appears to have occurred sometime between the 1901 and 1911 censuses. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Where have you seen the spelling Aberystwith mentioned? If it was on official documents, could it not be a case of it being miss-spelt by either clergy or civil servants who were not familiar from the area? Not that it proves anything either way, but the taxidermist who stuffed this trout caught in 1981 used the spelling Aberystwyth ond his labels. This is the sort of person who would have used an English spelling if one existed at the time (IMHO).--Rhyswynne (talk) 21:26, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I had assumed it was obvious from my question (though there is no reason why it should be, on reflection). The Aberystwith spelling is used for the name of the municipal borough for the censuses in 1841, 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 (the census for 1851 is not available online at this source, for some reason). The name changes to Aberystwyth from the 1911 census, and this name is used consistently from that census onwards. The Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales, published in 1870–72, also uses the spelling Aberystwith, as does William Camden in Britain, or, a Chorographicall Description of the most flourishing Kingdomes, England, Scotland, and Ireland, published in 1610, and John Wesley in The Journal of John Wesley, written in 1763–64. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Accommodation, tourism and local economy

Hi, I'm new to all this and have only really contributed minor edits and removed obvious vandalism before.

However, I presume that the massive great "Accommodation: Plas Tudor Serviced Apartment www.plastudor.co.uk" looks like advertising and reflects a conflict of interest for the user who placed it there.

Is it OK/right to remove that line and revert to "Tourism and local economy" without the extra line and external link?

Puzzler W (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for picking that up. I have reverted the two recent edits that added the promotional text. Please feel free to remove any similar promotional text that you may see in this or other article. Regards.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   06:00, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for undoing those changes. Will, of course, keep an eye out for similar promotional copy in future. — Puzzler W (talk) 09:57, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

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An historic market town

Aberystwyth is a historic market town,

Should read

Aberystwyth is an historic market town,

......since the latter is correct English usage — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahd8108 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

See here. I quote from the source "A historic is more common in both American and British English, but both usages are sufficiently common to be considered correct." Polyamorph (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation #3

@SovalValtos: even though I found no IPA transcriptions, the file and the audios on Forvo suggest [abɛˈrəstʊɨθ], or at least stress on the third syllable; I would not call this original research, considering it often occurs on Wikipedia that an audio source is used as a reference for a transcription, especially when there’s a dedicated help page to follow. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 23:12, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: What else can it be called other than WP:OR, particularly as another editor has given a different a interpretation as a result of their research? Forvo is user generated so not reliable as far as I can tell.SovalValtos (talk) 01:31, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

@SovalValtos: well, I think you recognize mine is probably the one that makes more sense, even admitting it is not 100% correct. I mean, does it ever occur that ⟨y⟩ is mute in Welsh? Most likely not in this case, listening to all those voice recordings. And in any case, I also noticed we should note [r] instead of [ɾ], in accordance with the help. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 10:26, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98:What matters here is the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. My, yours or any other editor's opinions on what makes sense is beside the point. It could be that WP:RS are found for several different IPA transcriptions in which case they could all be presented. If none are forthcoming then the IPAs should be removed until such time as a source is found. There is no hurry to include IPAs. The recordings being user generated are not even sure to be from Welsh speakers as there is no editorial control and fact checking on such sites so little use even for WP:OR.SovalValtos (talk) 18:03, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I removed a citation needed against the pronunciation but then found this talk section. Although I will not contest putting the cn back, I think that would be an error. You don't need a citation for a pronunciation that is clearly and correctly described by a native Welsh speaker in the audio file. This is indeed how a native Welsh speaker says the word, and the Anglicised form is what you hear from pretty much everyone else. As with many Welsh place names, there is more than one way to say it. As to the IPA: if that does not match, then make it match the ogg file. You don't need a citation request, you need someone who can correct any errors in the IPA - but the Welsh IPA looks spot on to me. [ETA I doubt you would hear a difference between ʊ and w in the final syllable so w could be fine there] Sirfurboy (talk) 08:38, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Sirfurboy you were adding your comment here whilst I was removing the material that could not be verified WP:V. The "Welsh IPA" whatever its source looks to need a cit.SovalValtos (talk) 08:48, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Roger 8 Roger has replaced the citation needed without explanation. Roger, please could you explain what kind of citation you think is required. SovalValtos although I do not see any problem with abɛˈrəstʊɨθ as IPA for the ogg of a native Welsh speaker saying the name correctly, I noted that there is more than one way to say Aberystwyth. I think we should have the IPA for both pronunciations as æbəˈrɪstwɪθ (or perhaps abɛˈrɪstwɪθ) is the way non native Welsh speakers (including native Welsh who are not first language Welsh speakers) would say the word).Sirfurboy (talk) 10:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

No answer yet from Roger 8 Roger but there are Youtube videos galore with the unsourced English pronunciation. E.g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5R6YnVNKB0. That is a promo video though so don't wish to use it as a source. There really should be no need to cite this source. It is not controversial that first language English speakers pronounce it with English vowels and first language Welsh speakers pronounce it with Welsh vowels.Sirfurboy (talk) 11:38, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Not so. I speak received pronunciation but I pronounce it as Aber-us-twith (I know that isn't IPA but it should be good enough).  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   14:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Yet you are presumably aware of all the people who pronounce it Aber-isst-with. Both pronunciations are acceptable. Here is a Welsh speaker who recorded the word for the Duolingo Welsh language course who recorded it that way: https://www.duolingo.com/dictionary/Welsh/aberystwyth/a0ca1f87fb3e4ac876e6431ffa7e0c3a Sirfurboy (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I know nothing about IPAs, but as someone who lived in Aberystwyth, all the locals pronounced it "Aber-isst-with". Cheers, Polyamorph (talk) 15:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

No mention that it was once considered the capital of wales

I was watching a public information film given to american ww2 soldiers based here in ww2 and they explain to the recruits the history of the UK, what surpised me is that they named aberystwyth as the capital of wales but there is no mention of that in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 12:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

There is now. I suspect there may be some sentiment that this is too trivial a reference to warrant a mention - let's discuss prior to any hasty deletions. Chumpih (talk) 04:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

A joke in a film is not a reliable published source.SovalValtos (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I suspect the original commenter above 88.96.14.189 was taken in by the joke in the film, so reference to the film on this page that explains that it's a joke would address that. The BFI website is reliable, and it's not the only source with this film - (Just checking - you're not doubting the authenticity of the BFI site, are you?). Chumpih (talk) 23:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

As I said in my edit summary, a brief comic exchange is insufficiently noteworthy. Aberystwyth is not mentioned in the article on the film, so we can assume that is is not important to the film. However, it does draw attention to something that we should cover: Aberystwyth was a candidate for capital of Wales (see Capital of Wales) and came third in a poll of local authorities in 1924.[1] Verbcatcher (talk) 08:49, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is possible to infer that absence of some information on a page shows lack of importance. Perhaps the contributor 88.96.14.189 above would have benefited from the sort of explanation that the page has at the moment. The film has likely been viewed by over a million people, so even though it's a 'wink' to those in the know, it's arguably influential. Chumpih (talk) 23:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Chumpih - that is not how it works. This is an encyclopedia that operates on facts, not possibilities. If you want your addition to stay you must give a citation that shows it is a fact, that it was notable enough to be added. See Notability and WEIGHT, and others. I agree with Verbcatcher that being one of the options to become the capital is worthy of inclusion. Chumpih, why not focus your energies on adding that fact instead? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Roger 8 Roger, I see that you are busy on Wikipedia, and spend your energies wisely. Let's all presume good faith here. There is no issue regarding fact in this discussion - it is indisputable, irrefutable fact that a WW2 film, likely shown to a large portion of the 1,600,000 USA troops stationed in the UK, contained a jokey reference to Aberystwyth as the capital of wales. The citation is robust. Do you question any of that? Regarding notoriety or weight, see other references here (e.g. Meaning of Liff - another humorous reference) with perhaps an order of magnitude less exposure - so what is the threshold here? If it is the other references on this page, then that bar is comfortably passed. Chumpih (talk) 00:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Your remarks on my talk page are addressed here - The citation, from a reliable source or not, is about Britain, not Aber or that film, making your addition uncited. Having other detail in an article that should not be there is not a justification. Adding a comment first to a dormant talk page comment that nobody had replied does not mean you can add detail to the article that cannot be challenged. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 00:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing the remarks here. The citation includes a timestamp which precisely points to the mention of Aberystwyth, so it is indeed cited robustly. I'm not sure what you mean by "Having other detail in an article that should not be there is not a justification.". Re the comment to the talk page, well, it just so happened that when I came to add a section at the bottom to discuss this edit, there was already one there: it would have been churlish to pass up the opportunity. Regarding notability, I see that Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists, so it looks like that argument against inclusion of this information on the grounds of notoriety is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Also, the edit is clearly in a neutral point of view, which addresses your previously referenced concern re. weight. So we have a citation, no issues for notability, and no issues for weight. Do you, Roger 8 Roger, have further objections? Or do you want to try and find some further flaw in the citation? Chumpih (talk) 00:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

In the absence of further replies from the otherwise-active editors here, I'll reinstate the edits. Thanks all for the interesting discussion.Chumpih (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Citation Needed on Pronunciation

SovalValtos you have reverted my inclusion of an ogg file from wikimedia and the removal of citation needed. Now you can argue that the removal of the citation needed requires consensus, but the ogg file was a good faith addition bringing the one pronunciation guide in line with the other. That should not be reverted without reason. As regards for consensus on removal of the citation needed: I removed it because I had provided what (as far as I can see) is the reason for the request. What exactly is the purpose of this citation needed request? What do you or anyone hope to get as a citation? If no one can answer that question, the template should not be there. If there is something you need a citation for, then I or another editor can find the requested information. Thanks. [ETA the question is really: What is the contentious information here that you think requires the insertion of a reference? Is it the IPA rendering, the pronunciation? the fact there are two? Something else? The citation needed does not have a reason given and no reason is obvious] Sirfurboy (talk) 21:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I am still very unclear as to what the controversial information is that you think requires a citation, but if it is the English pronunciation of Aberystwyth, this source appears to be good enough, as it has 48 videos of native English speakers saying the word, as well as the traditional IPA rendering as for this page - https://youglish.com/pronounce/Aberystwyth/english/uk . If this is what you think needs sourcing, I can add the citation. If it is not, then please explain where you see the controversy. Sirfurboy (talk) 18:47, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Aber-ust-wyth is not received English: it is a minority pronunciation by people with a slight deferment towards the Welsh pronunciation and the Welsh language in general. Those people are more likely to be educated, and people with received pronunciation are disproportionately educated, Therefore there is no direct link between RP speakers and Aber-ust-wyth. The English pronunciation is Aber-ist-wyth. Reliable sources will back this. If some RSs show the use of Aber-ust-wyth then weighting should be used. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:52, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely right, but this does not seem to be in dispute. There are two pronunciations, and one(aber-ist-wyth) is marked as English and the other is clearly labelled as the Welsh pronunciation. So again, what is the citation request asking for? Sirfurboy (talk) 12:24, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Does this [2] apply? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 15:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. I think it does. This is why I removed the citation request. I will do so again. Sirfurboy (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Various different or conflicting pronunciations and IPA transcriptions have been proposed in the last year. A WP:RS is required to enable WP:V Currently no pronunciation is cited. None of the various editor's WP:OR results should be included given the time citation has been requested. [3] is not a reliable source, nor are the videos, as they say on their website [4] "YOUGLISH.COM assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information".SovalValtos (talk) 17:07, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I did ask for your comments as soon as you reverted the change 3 days ago, so [5] is relevant too. You say various IPA transcriptions have been proposed, but I checked the history back several years on the page and what is there now is what was always there. The English IPA matches the IPA given by various sites including Youglish, which I agree is not an ideal source, and yet it has 48 examples of the pronunciation by native speakers so it is hardly irrelevant. The difference between IPA renderings is around the use of vowels, and the only real variation that most people will note is the "i/u" distinction of the first y. If you disagree about IPA rendering, it is not a verification issue. It is an issue to discuss here as to how to render the sounds you hear in the two common variations.

Note that IPA is very specific in rendering sounds. That is its purpose. Yet some speakers will render the r with alveolar trill, and others will go with a postalveolar approximant (which is what is used here - because that is the RP standard form) others might use other approximants and no one will notice. What they will notice is the vowel as mentioned. The English rendering, therefore, should be for standard RP English (and it is). That there are variations on this is neither contentious nor particularly notable. People will not notice which "r" is being used nor the length of the "a". They will notice that middle vowel and that is what is being expressed here. If you have an alternative IPA rendering of the English that you favour, I think you need to show that the alternative represents standard English (i.e. RP). Sirfurboy (talk) 17:36, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

ETA: I have gone through the edit history and found that in November last year, an IP edit changed the long established (and clearly correct) Welsh IPA here [6]. The revision removed the vowel sound altogether, making it mute. This is clearly wrong.Welsh has no silent letters. See [7] or [8]. The y is sounded,and in Welsh the y is generally sounded as schwa except in final syllables (there is some detail on that which is unimportant here). In "Ystwyth", the first y is schwa, but the second is in the final syllable so it is not. This is just the pronunciation rules of the Welsh language, and you can hear it in the sound file. The IP edit was in error, and @IvanScrooge98: correctly put the original and correct IPA rendering back in place a month later here [9]. Sirfurboy (talk) 18:59, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not interested in what you, I, or another think should be a particular IPA transcription included in the article, only in what is a verifiable transcription such as from a reliable pronunciation dictionary. Why the reluctance to cit? If there is no source available at present the material can be omitted until such time as a source is available. There is no hurry to include it. Meanwhile I am removing the unsourced material. Given the article does not have many regular watchers, perhaps a week or so should be allowed for comments.SovalValtos (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The reasons no citations are required here are (1) your contention that there is dispute on the IPA for the Welsh translation is entirely down to a single IP edit by someone who left an edit summary in Portuguese, changing the consensus of years and quickly reverted as an error. (2) That we have two perfectly good sound files and the IPA is merely a reflection of these. We do not need to cite for IPA descriptions. The only dispute can surely be whether the sound files are authentic. (3) the Welsh sound file that you dispute is entirely in line with Welsh pronunciation rules which I did cite here, but would not be cited in the article because they are too long, and would require discussion (which would be too much in the lead), but are good enough to satisfy anyone that those sound files are not made up by non Welsh speakers (unlike the disputed edit last year, which did not even seem to come from an English speaker, (4) please consult [10]. There is no contentious material here. It is over-citing to place citations for information that is not contentious.

So @Roger 8 Roger: I think we can remove the citation for the English pronunciation you kindly provided and put back the sound files. I shall, in any case, return the sound files now, but will leave your citation in place for your thoughts. They should not have been deleted. @SovalValtos: please be patient. There is clearly no consensus on deleting good information that you probably know to be correct. Certainly not on the basis of one single change over the course of a decade and a half by a Portuguese speaking IP editor. Sirfurboy (talk) 09:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

ETA the Welsh language sound file on the site is described here: [11]. The file is provided by a Welsh speaker from Ceredigion (i.e. the local area). The speaker is clearly a Welsh speaker as they provided this description, in Welsh: "ynganiad enw tref Aberystwyth; acen Ceredigion" (i.e. "pronunciation of the name of Aberystwyth town; Ceredigion accent). It is, in any case, not contentious as the pronunciation is in line with standard Welsh language pronunciation I described and cited above. Welsh is written phonetically. One can immediately look at a word, such as "ynganiad" and know exactly how it is pronounced (the y is schwa in that word btw). It is not original research to say that "research is pronounced re-search". However I am still not clear if this is really the issue you claim needs citation. What exactly is the claim being made that you think is contentious? Is it the Welsh pronunciation of the name? Is it the IPA description of the sound file? Is it that you dispute whether anyone says this? Sirfurboy (talk) 10:01, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Citation Needed on Meaning of Liff quote

@SovalValtos: Why the request for a citation on the "Meaning of Liff" quote? I agree that quotations should be verifiable, but in this case, Meaning of Liff has an article that is linked and the lead of the linked article gives title, author, ISBN and date. Everything else that will go into a cit (publisher, num pages etc.) can be found in the infobox. Do we give citations in such cases too? (genuine question: I do not know what the policy is on that)? Also, if you think a citation is required, why add a citation needed rather than just write the citation from that clearly linked information? To note, the exact quote may be verified by going to Amazon's kindle edition here [12] and clicking "look inside". Aberystwyth is on page 1. Sirfurboy (talk) 10:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I added the citation anyway. Wikipedia policy is all quotations must be sourced, and I think the problem of relying on the link to the Meaning of Liff page is that an editor could remove that link or the whole page could be deleted, leaving the quotation unverified, so the inline quotation is probably best after all. Sirfurboy (talk) 14:37, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Modern History (crime)

The article includes crime statistics from 2019 Police.uk, which give a breakdown of percentages of different crimes, but without any context about how this compares to other towns. The statistics sound alarming, with a focus on 'violent and sexual offences', but compared with another town in the UK of a similar size (eg. Rochford, Essex) they do not seem statistically unusual, and don't merit the sensational impression that's created by their current emphasis. They seem to have a misleading prominence in the article, as the raw number of crimes recorded in the three years to 2020 isn't notably high for a town of this size, and neither is the proportion of different categories of crime. For this reason, I'd say the statistics, in their current form, don't add anything except sensationalism, and I've removed them. If they were to be reinstated, they would need contextualising (eg. comparisons to towns of a similar size/demographic/resident:student population, as outlined above) to be useful. It would be informative to have crime figures, but they need to be presented in a more measured way. User:Kolopy 30th July 2020 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kolopy (talk • contribs) 18:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

A Welcome to Britain revisited: trivial material lacking secondary sourcing

User:Chumpih is very intent on keeping the unverified content that presents a single mention of the town in a 1943 educational film:

There is a World War II educational film A Welcome to Britain, which was produced for US troops being stationed in the UK. Alongside other easter eggs and disinformation, the film features a slightly befuddled school master referred to as Mr. Chips, confirming a bright pupil's answer that Aberystwyth was the capital of Wales. The other pupils are seen to laugh.

They edit-warred with me to keep it in; the problem of course is that there is no secondary source that verifies this, meaning this is nothing but a trivial mention. The editor, who is relatively inexperienced here, seems to think that a primary source is good enough for inclusion: they are wrong, of course; one might as well go through the 7 million+ Google hits and start including every single mention of the town. There were other problems with their reverts, which I have tried to address in a series of minor, explained edits--verbosity and original research (so the writing was pretty poor, and half the content was the viewer/editor's interpretation). It is worth noting the OWNERSHIP exerted here: Chumpih inserted the information in this edit; by now they have been reverted by Verbcatcher, Roger 8 Roger, and me, and are thus clearly editing against consensus. (I have the feeling these two editors just gave up in the face of persistent ownership and a willingness on the part of Chumpih to die on that hill.) I'll also ping two other editors who have experience with this article, User:Gareth Griffith-Jones and User:Sirfurboy. In short: this is material that lacks secondary sourcing to make this anything but a mere mention, and there is a consensus in the sense that three editors want the material gone and only the original writer wants it in. Drmies (talk) 21:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

It looks too trivial to me to retain.SovalValtos (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

As we're all aware, WP:PRIMARY is the policy here. And there's no interpretation going on here - just a transliteration. Can you provide some policy that demands secondary sources?

User:Drmies stated: "(I have the feeling these two editors just gave up in the face of persistent ownership and a willingness on the part of Chumpih to die on that hill.)" - Yeah, that may well be the case. I'm still of the opinion that this is a worthy inclusion, so please come up with robust arguments for its deletion. Amongst the arguments for inclusion are that this was of interest to me, and I wasn't the first person to feel that way, as per the comments from mystery user talk. There's likely some distribution of feeling towards the inclusion here, but given that random chaps were sufficiently passionate to speak out on the talk page, there's probably a number who feel similarly.

Re triviality, please, despite my clear inexperience, may I please refer you to WP:NNC which states: "The notability guidelines do not apply to contents of articles". There are many points on this page that are rather more trivial than this content. Chumpih (talk) 22:17, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

It's trivial. It lacks proper sourcing. I don't think anyone here is a "random chap". "Slightly befuddled" was a transliteration of what, precisely? Drmies (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Re. "It's trivial.", again, triviality is not policiy. WP:NNC. Please can you cite some counter-policy? Re. "It lacks proper sourcing.", again, there's a link. Re. "I don't think anyone here is a 'random chap'", are you insinuating something? Re. "Slightly befuddled", I don't think that's beyond the sorts of things one may encounter in 'audio descriptive' content, but fair enough if you feel otherwise - I'll not contest the deletion of that phrase. Chumpih (talk) 22:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Chumpih, the question is really what you meant when you said "given that random chaps were sufficiently passionate to speak out on the talk page". Who is a random chap here? What were you insinuating? Drmies (talk) 16:11, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The random chap I was referring to is 88.96.14.189, who raised the issue at the top of this Talk page in late 2018. They made a few contributions before then, and not much after. This user's contribution here indicates at least one other feels similarly re. the inclusion of text on "A welcome to Britain" in this Aber article. Chumpih (talk) 16:26, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a continuation of the #No mention that it was once considered the capital of wales discussion above. As I said there, a brief comic exchange is insufficiently noteworthy for inclusion. Other items in the In fiction section also fail to meet the noteworthyness threshold. We should remove those that only have a tenuous connection with the town or simply a coincidence of name. As well as A Welcome to Britain, I favour removing these:

• Classic Battletech - a star system is named Aberystwyth
• A String in the Harp - a character works at at the University
• The Meaning of Liff - too trivial
• Mr. Bass's Planetoid - a character claims to be from Aberystwyth

Verbcatcher (talk) 22:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

What is this "noteworthiness threshold" of which you speak? For sure, in some collections of pages, there's clear policy that stuff isn't worth including. What collection's policy applies here? Chumpih (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

'Noteworthy' is mentioned in WP:NOTEWORTHY, which links to the same place as WP:NNC that you linked above. It's not a formal policy, and is essentially the same thing as due weight. WP:WEIGHT mainly discusses due weight in relation to neutrality, whereas the issue here is whether something is significant enough to merit mention, following WP:NOTEVERYTHING. The relevant section of the Manual of Style is MOS:CULTURALREFS. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks very much Verbcatcher for MOS:CULTURALREFS. It states "The consensus is very clear that a secondary source is required in almost all cases". So some googling was warranted. The best I can do for Aber / Capital / A Welcome to Britain is this, which is frankly, I'll admit, a bit rubbish. But at least it exists. Chumpih (talk) 23:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

A (marginally) better reference: on IMDB. Chumpih (talk) 23:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

IMDb is not a reliable source. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think anyone here is questioning that these words are in the filmscript. The issue is whether they are sufficiently significant in the context of Aberystwyth. Can you find a source to establish that? Verbcatcher (talk) 00:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

How about this one? Or this one? So we have four secondary sources, and these last two are viable by many standards. First two I found were less so, for sure. If these latter two were cited in the page would you be satisfied? Chumpih (talk) 00:25, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Your Cambrian News source is the best so far, but I think it is insufficient. The mention of the file in your 'Welcome to History' source is in a reader's comment, which is not a reliable source, and it is unclear that the podacast itself is reliable. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree: it's just a trivial note without a byline. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. May I ask why you feel the Cambrian News article pretty much dedicated to the content in question is insufficient? This isn't a passing reference - it's fundamental to that newspaper article, so it appears to satisfy the MOS:CULTURALREFS requirement for 'a secondary source'. And again, WP:NNC otherwise applies; a considerably lower threshold than that required for a distinct article. That aside, I agree re. paucity of other 2ry sources so far. Chumpih (talk) 02:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, the 2015 RfC on cultural references suggests that the cited source should indicate the significance. In this case, the Cambrian News Article states that the video was watched by 800,000 people on YouTube. (currently 985,000 views). So it looks like there's a secondary source meeting the criteria set out in the WP not-a-policy on these references. Chumpih (talk) 02:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment If the film was substantially connected with Aberystwyth, then this might be relevant to discuss in the "In film and television" section. However, this is a passing non-factual comment in a film which is otherwise irrelevant to this town. I agree with removing it. Polyamorph (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• • Totally agree with Polyamorph and Drmies and Verbcatcher.
    Let's end this tedium now.
    Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 20:38, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• • 'nuff said. It's gone. Chumpih (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Relevance of Harod Uchtryd

I question the relevance of a sizeable paragraph (History section sub-section Early Modern Era) on the Hafod Uchtryd estate to the history of Aberystwyth as it is deep inland from the coast within Ceredigion (Cardiganshire). Unless someone can demonstrate connections with Aberystwyth town I would suggest the paragraph's deletion in toto.Cloptonson (talk) 12:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

A three-line paragraph is hardly "sizeable" and not out of proportion with regards to the rest of the article.
Being in the Ystwyth valley is sufficient in my view for objecting to your proposal. As a footnote, please check your misspelling above of Aberystwyth.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 14:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Pardon me, I am just a non-local to Aberystwyth working from a map. As fact, how many miles from the town is it? My misspelling of the town name is accidental and I have corrected it. I have visited the town a number of times and still have a book about its 'Past and Present' (Born on a Perilous Rock by W.J. Lewis) which does not mention this estate. (Gogerddan is closer.)Cloptonson (talk) 20:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

We should be careful about what we include. How many people have heard of Hafod Uchtryd in the context of Aber? What justifiable, actual number? The fact that there is a WP page on Hafod Uchtryd is insufficient justification for inclusion on this page (unless there is clear consensus to include). Indeed, from looking at Hafod Uchtryd, there is no mention of Aber besides sharing same postcode and a couple of people living there from time to time. Sharing a postcode is surely insufficient. If having someone from an estate living in a town is enough justification for inclusion of that estate on the town's page then that opens the scope for many, many tedious decisions to be taken about many, many pages. It's almost certain that Gareth Griffith-Jones is creating content in good faith. But if there is some defined threshold for inclusion on this article, then this quite possibly falls below it. Should be a section on this page for "nearby estates"? Chumpih. (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Clearly out of scope WP:OOS (off topic) for the Aberystwyth article.SovalValtos (talk) 21:39, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support removal (edit conflict) I don't see the relevance to Aberystwyth town, sure it's nearby but there needs to at least be some link to the town explained, being in the Ystwyth valley is not, in my opinion, sufficient justification on its own.Polyamorph (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Churches

Church and Castle at Aberystwyth, Wales - take 2 (36874831512)

Does Aberystwyth not have any? What a godless place. KJP1 (talk) 11:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually it has rather a lot. Possibly a daunting task to list them all! I will see if I can find some info to make a start. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:32, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Just wrote a starter section. I expect it can be much improved. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:55, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I love this image. Is there a church in there somewhere? I shall take a look at your starter and see if Pevsner can help. KJP1 (talk) 12:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Sirfurboy p.s. - And you’ve given me somewhere to bluelink my latest effort. Thank you! KJP1 (talk) 12:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Great image, but it is of the Old College, Laura Place. St Michael's Church is behind the bank but not visible. That image could go in a section about the University. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh and there you are. It faces onto Laura Place, so you could add it in that article too (although that shot is from the castle with the sea facing side showing). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Please also do not assume that because a church exists it is either notable or noteworthy. It may be neither. I have reverted one addition already because it crossed the line into link spam. Any supporting reference needs to show that it is significant without also being an advert.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   13:12, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Only time churches hold significant relevance is dependent on usually five things:

1: It was a priory or monastery in old times and that town or city or village grew around it

2: The church has grade listing or scientific interest. So for example Leeds Minster is a grade 1 listed church and is of interest or Bradford Cathedral is also grade 1 listed and is one of the cities oldest buildings.

3: The church was elevated to minster cathedral abbey or priory and is of notability.

4: The church gave the town city status like Westminster Abbey or York Minster or Lincoln Cathedral gave them city status.

5: The church is either a parish church or unique like Chesterfields has a crooked spire, Bangor Cathedral is at a low level due to the Viking wars or Nantwichs church is seen as the cathedral of South Cheshire vice versa.

So yes @Velella: is right in notability or noteworthy like my examples but if it's like a Baptist church or its main church was made redundant. Then major notability is not normally as notable. Unless it goes under amenities or demographics. DragonofBatley (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

WP:N refers to pages, not to sentences. For instance, primary schools (also not mentioned on this page), may be mentioned because they are information about the page subject, Aberystwyth, and not the things themselves (schools). Primary schools, on the other hand, do not generally meet WP:N for pages in their own right, with the possible exception of Ysgol Gymraeg owing to its historical importance. That page could do with some attention though. I agree that the text I put about Alfred Place was not ideal, and changed it, but there is more that can be said about all of these churches. I don't think this whole section is finished yet either. For instance, rather than citing each church individually, it would be better to cite a source that describes them as a whole. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:06, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

This isn't an argument about notability but about significance which is a lesser test but still requiring reliable sources . This is an encyclopaedia and not simply a collection of trivia.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   16:27, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for that rather pointless, but splendidly pompous, lecture. And the chorus from the famed Dragon of B. I shall bear all of your invaluable points in mind. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure, significance is the issue, but what I was replying to was an attempt to use notability guidelines for articles to suggest that churches are not relevant and significant to an article about a town. We can both agree that is a red herring. So the question is significance. In what way is it not significant to mention, in an article about the town of Aberystwyth, major landmarks that have stood for a century and more, and had significant congregations and made significant contributions to the life and culture of the town? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

You asked for why no churches I said what. End of don't ask for pointers if you don't like the response @KJP1:. DragonofBatley (talk) 11:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

DragonofBatley - I’m sorry, but I truly don’t understand what you are trying to say. Anyways, have now added a church, Church of St Michael and All Angels, Aberystwyth. KJP1 (talk) 12:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay 👌 I get what your trying to say. Or as said above "Chorus from the famed Dragon of B.". Could be interpreted as a pot shot or sarcasm. Interesting. DragonofBatley (talk) 12:28, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, still no clearer. Can you try and remember to indent your comments. KJP1 (talk) 12:39, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok 👌 😂 DragonofBatley (talk) 12:46, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Mario Rutelli

• 
  War memorial
• 
  Tabernacle Chapel memorial
• 
  (the only?) Life size statue of Edward VIII

Another question. How did Aberystwyth end up with such a haul of sculpture by Mario Rutelli? And should this be reflected in the article? A sub-section of the Culture section? KJP1 (talk) 09:48, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I understand that Rutelli was friends or at least acquainted with Thomas Jenkins, a notable Aberystwyth resident who had a shipping business based out of London. Business took Jenkins to Italy, and it seems he met and struck up an acquaintance with Rutelli. Jenkins was a member (probably an elder - would have to check) of Tabernacle chapel, and commissioned the war memorial. I am not sure about the Edward VIII statue but I will bet he was connected to that too. Sources though... well I am sure they are out there. :) Definitely worth a paragraph or more. Not entirely sure if its enough for a sub section, but wouldn't oppose one. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I’ll have a go and you can see what you think. They are all listed structures, so sources should be fine. KJP1 (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

p.s. There you go, [13]. KJP1 (talk) 10:52, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Made a start with Rutelli. Darke actually suggests a fourth, Statue of Sir John Williams in the National Library, but it’s not listed here, List of public art in Ceredigion. Others things are, however, which could be added. KJP1 (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

p.p.s - The Vosey triptych on the Old College should definitely have a mention, if not its own article. KJP1 (talk) 12:55, 17 October 2022 (UTC)