Talk:List of rulers of Kongo

Version of names

This list contains many Anglicized Portuguese names that should be converted back to the actually Portuguese names as is now standard practice among historians. Also it would be good to add more of these kings African names. Rmhermen 00:53, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with using the anglicized names, it is very common for monarch of the period.---moyogo 10:21, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

List according to Batsikama (1971)

• Muzinga a Nkuwu Ndo Nzao +1506
• Mpanzu a Muzinga 1506-1507
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Funsu 1507-1542
• Muzinga a Mubemba Ndo Petelo 1542-1543
• Mpanzu a Muzinga Ndo Fula 1543-1544
• Muzinga a Mpanzu Ndo Dyoko 1544-1561
• Muzinga a Mpanzu Ndo Funsu 1561
• Muzinga a Mpanzu Ndo Mbeledanu 1561-1567
• Mpanzu a Muzinga Ndo Diki 1567-1568
• Mpanzu a Muzinga Ndo Luvwalu 1568-1578
• Muzinga a Mpanzu Ndo Luvwalu 1578-1614
• Muzinga a Mpanzu Ndo Mbele 1614-1615
• Muzinga a Mpanzu Ndo Luvwalu 1615-1622
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Petelo 1622-1624
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Ngalasia 1624-1626
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Bolozi 1626-1631
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Luvwalu 1631-1636
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Luvwalu 1636-1638
• Mpanzu a Muzinga Ndo Luvwalu 1641-1663 ? (1638-1641 maybe)
• Muzinga a Muzinga Ndo Ngalasia 1641-1663
• Mubemba a Muzinga Ndo Ntoni 1663-1665
• Mpanzu a Muzinga Ndo Luvwalu 1666-1669
• Mpanzu a Muzinga Ndo Luvwalu 1669
• Mpanzu a Mubemba Ndo Lufwayi 1669-1678
• Mpanzu a Mubemba Ndo Nanyele 1678-1680

This list was found in Histoire générale du Congo, by Isidore Ndaywel è Nziem. The NB about it says "Batsikama fait intervenir également les éléments de la tradition orale en même temps qu'il transcrit les prénoms des rois en langues Kongo", meaning the Kongo names come from oral tradition. The names are overlapping with the Portuguese or the anglicized ones: Nanyele = Daniel, Luvwalu = Alvaro, Funsu = Afonso, Dyoko = Diogo, Bolozi = Ambrosio, etc.---moyogo 10:21, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I have added an new list at the end of the two presently posted. My list is based on a careful reading of all the extant manuscript and printed sources, including some that are not widely known, a summary of which is found in my introduction. I believe it to be authoratative and would like to make it the primary list.

I have given the names in Portuguese orthography, as this is the one that they themselves used in their substantial correspondence, most kings who ruled for any time left at least one letter. I have modernized their Kikongo names using the orthography in common use in Kikongo language historical texts such as Kinkulu kia Nsi Eto.

Some Corrections

Props to Shiraz4 for the organizing of the Kongo kings into houses. However, there are errors in the assignment which I have sought to correct. In the seventeenth century, it's clear that the acession of Alvaro I marks the advent of the house of Kwilu, and the other houses are also well documented. For the later 18th and 19th century we need to do more research before we can assign house membership, as, although sources of the time refer to two or three houses, they don't always name them (this would be the Castello de Vide and Raimondo da Dicomano reports). Hints about this are found in traditions, as recorded in Nkutama a mvila za makanda, and Kinkulu kia Nsi Eto, and their names might still be recoverable. However, to do this would be to provide original research and until that is published it seems premature to put it in Wikipedia. I asked about these matters when I did field research at Mbanza Kongo in 2002 but no one seems to know about this these days.

I have tried to fix the lists for the late seventeenth century, but have a lot of problems in grouping the kings. The lineage idea is intersting, but the division into lineage dynasties doesn't really work. We need to come up with a better way to show this information, right now there are still errors in presentation.

hi and thanks for catching some of my mistakes. however, i must contest at least one point. Pedro II was definately not part of the house/kanda of Kwilu. He established the House of Nsundi also called the house of Kinkanga. i'm pretty confused on the Kwilu kanda in general and I will refrain from making any further edits to that branch. A new book I came across fills in the holes on at least some of the later rulers in respect to their kandas. i'll keep you posted. god willing we'll hammer this baby out. cheers!Scott Free 20:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Palmares addition

I do not think that the description of Palmares as having been founded by a branch of the Kongo royal family to be accurate in any way, and I plan to delete this section.

Most of the slaves brought to Brazil during the formation of Palmares were from the Kimbundu-speaking parts of Angola, not the Kingdom of Kongo. This is demonstrated by the Kimbundu form of names, such as ngana (=lord in Kimbundu) as a title. The local name of the kingdom of Palmares was Angola Janga, which is both Kimbundu and clearly refers to Angola and not Kongo or Congo. Several Portuguese reports tell us that that the language spoken in Palmares was Kimbundu (or the "lingua de Angola"). When the Portuguese governor of Angola exiled the puppet branch of the Ndongo ruling family, following their siezure of Pungo Andongo in 1671, they deliberately did not send them to Pernambuco for fear that they would escape to Palmares and be recognized there as kings.

I have no doubt that some Kongos were found in Palmares, even quite a considerable number, but there is no evidence in the written record, either in Recife, in Lisbon, or in Coimbra, to support any part of the claims in this entry.

I will wait for about ten days, and then, barring further discussion, delete this section.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Dom Alvaro II of Kongo.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Afonso and Pedro drawings by Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur

Hello, can someone help me.

There are drawings (Roi de Congo and Roi de Loango) by Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur that were each posted next to Pedro and Afonso names.

LACMA (Los Angeles County Museum of Art) didn ´t even say they are Pedro I Nkanga a Mvemba and Afonso I Mvemba a Nzinga in descriptions. https://collections.lacma.org/node/208546 https://collections.lacma.org/node/208545

https://books.google.com/books/about/Encyclop%C3%A9die_des_voyages.html?hl=fr&id=2D0TAAAAQAAJ Encyclopédie des voyages, Volume 1 by Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur : Nothing indicated that they are Afonso and Pedro (page 51 and previous pages). Somebody040404 (talk) 15:15, 29 November 2020 (UTC)