Talk:Shanghai tunnels

Title

See my comments at Talk:Portland, Oregon. In any case, I feel "Shanghai tunnels" is too broad a title for what this article intends to cover; why not "Underground Portland"? -- llywrch 02:11, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

most of the references i've found call them the 'portland underground,' with 'shanghai tunnels' being a nickname for them. i think it might be appropriate to rename the article as such, and reference the nickname in the intro. i may add that in soon myself, but article title i'll leave for now. --Jocke 01:32, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How about this article be merged with Shanghaiing? After all this is just Portland's example of it. Also, I have moved the two other cities that were listed in Portland, Oregon here. --Jason McHuff 21:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

im not sure merging is in order. i don't have specific references to cite, but i know i've seen a travel channel show on the tunnels. shanghaiing is one thing. the tunnels an entirely different sort of thing. Yung Wei 19:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Myth

This entry is false and is commercial advisement for one person who does "tours". Portland was not known for shanghaiing and did not have tunnels and trapdoors. I recommend that this whole entry be deleted or changed to reflect the nature that shanghai tunnels in Portland is a myth and a commercial enterprise of one man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.237.166.109 (talk • contribs) 22:47, March 2, 2006

FACT. My family goes back four generations in Portland, and has evidenced these tunnels and the practice. A 2nd great uncle was a ship's captain that chronicled this practice in Portland. Likewise, my grandfather recounted the practice long before the tours were ever set up. Infact, most of the tunnels have been destroyed through neighborhood development. The local newspaper printed a run of articles of this in the late 1970's/early 1980's also, long before the tours were set up. I have personally seen the tunnels prior to the tours, as the city had closed off entrances to the underground due to health and safety issues.

This sounds to be as if the person questioning this wanted to run a tour but lost out.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.60.10.107 (talk • contribs) 21:43, April 10, 2006

Sir, this last sentence discredits you pretty spectacularly. Also, please clearly mark and sign your comments on talk pages. -- pde 15:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Discredited or not, the thrust of "FACT"'s post is backed up a many many references. Falling back simply to WP:V and WP:CITE, the Portland Underground a.k.a The Shanghai Tunnels is pretty much precisely what the article says it is. There are thousands of Google hits to back it up. I could find nothing that dispelled it as a myth. I'm not saying there aren't any, but a search for "Portland Underground" "Shanghai tunnel" +myth came up with nothing relevent. -- ShinmaWa^(talk) 13:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Chuck Palahniuk has a whole chapter of his travelguide to Portland dedicated to the underground tunnels. Perhaps before you muck up the page with clean up banners you should do a little research. People in my college classes have written research papers on the tunnels, not to mention the myriad of newspaper articles over the years. I mean, you can actually walk around in the damn things! Ask anybody in Portland, or better yet see them for yourself! How much more un-mythical does a structure need to be to get your seal of approval? I nominate the banners be removed. Ccj 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I removed the banners, since it seems obvious to everybody except one person that the structures do in fact exist. Ccj 09:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

They most definitely exist. In fact I work in a building in Old Town with one that enters our basement. There is a large network of them underneath Portland. It's no myth. 67.40.255.9 01:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)DPM

Unfortunately it's difficult to use as a source (though they may have published material in their research library), but the Oregon Historical Society in fact had a small show of items related to these tunnels which supports their purpose as used to kidnap people for use on ships. My guess is OHS wasn't just making it up. I believe the objections to this article are misguided “political correctness”. Proxy User (talk) 13:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This article still claims that there is no evidence of Shanghaiing in Portland, while citing a source that gives ample evidence of Shanghaiing in Portland. That aside, the article on Bunko Kelly describes--in some detail--a Portland Shanghaier and includes several sources detailing his life and crimes. In particular, in Kelly's autobiographical Thirteen Years in the Oregon Penitentiary, he states that he was found guilty of murdering William Sears while attempting to Shanghai him in Portland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.103.168.4 (talk) 07:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Title change?

The title would more appropriately describe various tunnels in Shanghai, rather than tunnels in Portland. Title change to Shanghai tunnels (Oregon)? --Sumple (Talk) 23:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

• No, this is unnecessary as there is no specific "Shanghai tunnels" in Shanghai that would create an ambiguity.--Pharos 06:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Link to Palahniuk and tours

The mention of Palahniuk was removed from the article by the person who insisted the underground wasn't real. Can we put it back? It seems pretty straightforward to me--noted author writes chapter on the tunnels, ergo, this gets mentioned in the article about them. I did edit the article to mention the group that runs the tours, which appears to be a 501(c)(3) non-profit, one that even teaches classes at PSU. This seems pretty legit, and not a commercial venture, so I don't see why we couldn't replace the link to the page about the tours. (cgsmthood.com) (I also just ran across these other, definitely commericial, underground tours: [1].) We have plenty of articles about tourist trap-type things, so even if this one person's get-rich-quick scheme (one that happens to be backed up with history), I don't see why there shouldn't be an article on it with the appropriate links. (Witness Seattle Underground). Katr67 07:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

More and better sources?

If the idea of "Shanghai tunnels" rests on more than just imaginative speculation and oral history regarding these tunnels' purposes, could we please have a few authoritative historical references, ideally with their own citations and bibliographies, referenced? Not to impune the Cascade Geographical Society, but their web entry reads more like marketing for the tours they offer than serious scholarship. --ScottMainwaring 06:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

See my comments above in "Myth". Proxy User (talk) 13:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Confusion

OK, nobody questions the existence of these tunnels. What's questioned is whether they were ever used to kidnap people, and if so whether the extent of this use was anywhere near the claims made here.

See this article from the Oregonian: " The so-called Shanghai tunnels have been immortalized by travel writers, television shows and even by the Portland Oregon Visitors Association, which dangles the story as a lure to out-of-towners. The only problem is that the stories, as beloved as they have become, seem to be more fiction than fact." <eleland/talkedits> 04:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to fix the article. The Oregonian is a reliable source. Just do it quickly before the article vanishes. I'm saving a clipping if nobody gets around to it. The article will probably stay online for a couple of weeks. Katr67 12:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are a cache version of the oregon news article( wich is missing from their website by some reason) and also an pdf-copy of an article from Portland Monthly 2004 with the title Who´s getting shanghaied - The Sailors or the Public?. Both articles questions the autenticity of the claims that the tunnels i Portland vere used for shanghaing people.LH 12:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Oral History

I have 28 years experience with Oregon and almost 10 with Portland. If someone had said the words "Portland Underground" to me before I read this page, I'd have had no idea what they were talking about. I have always heard the tunnels referred to as "The Shanghai Tunnels" and that is what I believe most Oregonians, and specifically natives to Oregon, would recognize it as.

There is a very long standing oral history built around the tunnels in the Portland metro area. There is even a bar that I would recommend in Portland called The Shanghai Tunnel.

Personally, the first time I heard of the tunnels was when my grandfather told me, very sternly, at least 16 years ago, to never drink in Portland. He gave the Shanghai tunnels as the reason and I didn't understand what he meant until I moved there and heard more stories from other people. Grandpa came to Oregon from the East coast when he was a teen, by himself. He liked to drink. I think he may have had some experience with the tunnels or maybe just knew of the oral history but he didn't go into great detail. Now he's passed on and I probably will never know the extent of his dealings with the tunnels. However, my grandmother on the other side of my family was born in Oregon in the early twenties and moved to Portland in the 30s. I'll have to ask her if she remembers any stories from back then about the tunnels.

Not listening to grandpa, I ended up working in a drinking and dancing establishment in downtown Portland that had tunnel openings in the basement area that I had to pass close by regularly. Many of my coworkers believed the whole building was haunted. The tunnels always gave me the creeps and a definite idea of why many believe the tunnels are haunted. That particular building (now a different bar at 424 sw 4th) is three stories high above street level and the oral tradition about the building was that it had once been a drinking and gambling establishment with a brothel on the top floor. The tunnels were supposed to have been used to get persons of good reputation into the bar and brothel without them being seen entering the building.

I've heard, in many circles, that the tunnels were used to shanghai able bodied men for forced labor on ships. But I've also heard that the tunnels were used to traffic shanghaied women for the sex trade. I think either story could at least hold some truth. However, this is still just oral tradition and the stuff of urban legends until more documentation is found. Now that I'm curious to see what can be found out about the tunnels I'll have to start digging.

I looked up the website of The Shanghai Tunnel, the bar mentioned previously, and they actually do refer to the tunnels as the Portland Underground on their history page. http://www.shanghaitunnel.com/

I'm not sure what kind of research or documentation they might have, but there is also a group called Northwest Paranormal Investigations that reports that the tunnels may be one of the most haunted places in Oregon http://www.northwestparanormal.com/images.html

The Register-Guard, an Oregon newspaper, had an article on the tunnels. The article seems to say that the practice of kidnapping men and taking them to sea was practiced in Portland, but that there isn't enough proof that the tunnels were used in this practice. They reported at one point in the article, "San Francisco was considered the "world's capital of shanghaiing" a century ago - but Portland at times rivaled the Bay Area for its kidnapping and selling men to work the ships of the past, according to Richard H. Dillon's 1961 book, "Shanghaiing Days."

Someone should look Dillon's book up, maybe even me if I can find time.

The Oregonian newspaper had an article with the same info as the Register-Guard. The Oregonian reported Oct. 4th, 2007, "despite the prevalence of kidnapping, several historians said that in their review of old newspaper articles, seamen's publications and city and historical society archives, they have found no mention of tunnels being used to cart off men.

Normally, they would expect to find legal or municipal records referring to the digging that would have been necessary between buildings. They'd also expect to find mentions, for example, in a 1912 vice commission report on Old Town, other crime reports or in stories about shanghaiing at the time." And they also said, "A file of Shanghai tunnels documents at the Oregon Historical Society is fairly thin".

In the Oregonian article Richard Engeman, a former public historian at the Oregon Historical Society who has been looking for evidence of the tunnels for years, said, "If there was something intriguing going on, it just boggles the mind that no one would see fit to say anything about it"

I went to google images and found a few interesting pictures, but mostly from the tours.

Happy truth hunting everyone, 24.20.50.193 06:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Some of this has been discussed above and/or is noted in the article. If you can improve the article, please do--this page is for discussions about improving the article, not for a general discussion of the topic. And remember that we can't use original research. Thanks! Katr67 14:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

The author cited Michael P. Jones is the tour guide of CGS.

Per Wikipedia guideline there is a Conflict of Interest. Mr.Jones represent CGS, the primary beneficiary of tour proceeds.

The contractual terms you're required to enter into before taking a tour with CGS spells out non competition and no assistance of competitor clause as well as other restrictive terms, which seem to suggest that tour maybe designed to promote its commercial interest and the contract designed to preserve its commercial interest. CGS tour contract --Cantaloupe2 (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

References

Visual evidence in Portland

My family moved from Texas to Salem. Upon spending time in Portland on May 1, my wife and I noticed a lot of boarded-up "entrances" that appear to be entrances similar to those found in NY City to access their underground trains.

We began looking for information on underground tunnels in Portland, and this article is what we found.

I don't know if these are the same tunnels referenced. However, there is some sort of underground tunnel in/near downtown Portland - and there is visible evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.236.238 (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Without further details, offering a speculation based on my first-hand experience of downtown Portland I believe what you encountered were one (or more) of the following: (1) part of the construction related to installing new light rail tracks in the Bus Mall (5th & 6th); (2) the old delivery elevator doors that allowed supplies to be brought to the basements without needing to go thru the store; (4) the public restrooms in front of the Pioneer Courthouse (which do resemble a NYC subway entrance); (3) you encountered the closed pedestrian underpass under Front Avenue (which some call Naito Drive). In any case, these have no relation to the "Shanghai Tunnels". -- llywrch (talk) 00:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Shanghai Tunnels research...

I came across this article when trying to explain the tunnels to a friend overseas. I've lived here all my life and have seen and been in sections of tunnels in various parts of down town that were described to me as parts of the "shanghai tunnels" so I know they exist, but first hand experience isn't encyclopedic so I hit the net. It turns out that well over 90% of the google hits brought up information either put online by Michael Jones and CGS, or referring to them. To get valid results I finally ended up with the following search string in google:

portland shanghai tunnels -tours -tour -bar -wiki -wikipedia -travel -cgs -sharan -shanghaitunnels.info

This still brought up a lot of pages referring to both the Shanghai Tunnel bar and to Michael Jones and CGS, but also returns quite a few first hand accounts, local folklore, a very small amount of citable sources, and a vast wealth of people doubting and attempting to debunk the myths.

So far the best and most citable source I've found online is an article from Portland Monthly Magazine's May 2004 volume titled "Who's Getting Shanghaied... The Sailors or the Public?" which I found on a discussion forum about a less citeable History Channel show about the tunnels:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700016800&tstart=75&mod=1189669318072

Regarding some of the past discussion on this page... The tunnels do exist, I and others here have seen them. Were they used to traffic men and women in an overseas slave trade? No one really knows, and there is very little physical evidence. According to citeable sources the slave trade did occur in Portland and other west coast cities at the time that the tunnels were in use, but there's no way to know if the tunnels themselves were used for it. For the sake of encyclopedic quality, I'd suggest a rewrite of the article using only factual information, limiting references to Michael Jones and his tour to a mention that he provides one. I do not have time for such a rewrite at the moment however, so if anyone wants to beat me to it, go right ahead. :) I'll look into some of the sources mentioned in the Portland Monthly article when I get a chance, and see if I can't dig up something a little more solid. KrisWood (talk) 05:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone who has ever commented here questions whether or not there are tunnels in Old Town. It is well documented that tunnels exist. The question has always been the Shanghaiing, and most modern reliable sources (there was Oregonian article last year that pretty much came to the conclusion they were not used for kidnapping sailors to be) say no Shanghaiing. Aboutmovies (talk) 06:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but they are indeed known as the "Shanghai Tunnels" in local folklore. No one I know calls them the "Portland Underground". I've only heard the term when comparing the Shanghai Tunnels to the Seattle Underground. It'd just be nice if the article were a bit more informative about the tunnels themselves and their representation in modern folklore for what they really are, not what some (especially tour guides) would like us to believe. I'd suggest a similar format to the Seattle Underground's article, since both structures are similar in form and cultural impact. KrisWood (talk) 07:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You're quite right, no one calls it the "Portland Underground", because that's not the name for these tunnels, they have always been known as "Shanghai Tunnels". I *do* recall a display at the Oregon Historical Society (up off the Park Blocks near PSU) that specifically talked about abductions for workers on ships.

In my opinion most or all of the objections to this article have to do with editing for "political correctness", which of course is censorship. Proxy User (talk) 08:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

What is everyone arguing about?

Okay so I was surprised to find so much argument over the validity of this articles claims. First off the article states "according to popular legend" and does not state factually that these were ever used to kidnap anybody. Well, having grown up in Portland I can tell you that it is definitely a local legend, given that there are sources that prove this there's nothing left to argue there. Changing the name to anything but Shanghai Tunnels (Oregon) would be out of place seeing as how I had never heard them called Portland Underground until this article and I feel that naming the article such would be misleading to someone trying to educate themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.223.155 (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Source

• http://www.ifc.com/shows/portlandia/blog/2014/03/10-places-in-portland-you-wont-believe-exist ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

In popular culture

I think this should be a section. But I don't know how to write it. I am hoping that some of you have ideas about it. It occured to me as I was rewatching Grimm (season 5) in which the tunnels are referenced. --Geekyroyalaficionado (talk) 22:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

They are also referenced in episodes of Leverage, although heavily fictionalized, e.g. one set is supposedly near Lloyd Center on the east side, far away from the old waterfront. -- llywrch (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)