Talk:Housewife

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2019 and 8 March 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maoyi.95.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:37, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2019 and 2 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Loulou 1010. Peer reviewers: EliDays.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Other use of the term

Reading my relatives letters and memoirs from WW2, a 'housewife' is used by them to mean some sort of cleaning implement. They are dead now, so I can't ask them, but it was not a scrubbing brush, nor a polishing cloth, but something along those lines. Does anyone know more specifically what a 'housewife' is in this context? It was obviously a term in general use at the time. ixo (talk) 07:18, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

2003

I'm confused, how's a link to a book (without mentioning anything about it) that seems to be just a piece of fundie propaganda more relevant than a link to the Wikipedia article on marriage? -- Timo Honkasalo 20:26 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

I added a link to marriage

I resent anyone using biggoted terminology to describe people of the Christian faith as "fundies". I stay at home, I love raising my kids and being there for my family. There are many out there who do...get over it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.30.26.130 (talk) 18:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

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Sorry for making this page somewhat uglier, but I was somewhat uncomfortable with some of the phrasing - boys now learn home economics and the like, and the idea of a life as a homemaker is a little old-fashioned: today it's more likely to be a few years. Martin

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The rise in unemployment in the western world has led to a rise in the number of men without permanent employment who choose to carry out this role, often because their wives/female partners have greater earning power than they do.

Please indentify source for claiming there is a trend of men choosing homemaking roles due to being unemployed. Since unemployment has been falling over the past century, you might look for another cause and effect relationship.

Nod. Was just copying text from househusband :) Martin

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I removed the apron link, the person who put it there obvioulsy has little experience about household chores if he thinks apron is central to domestic hygiene. I also removed the wall of 1.03 million yen and 1.30 million yen link as the article is rather peculiar stub, and google doesn't produce anything about the subject. I'm also going to remove the link to the book, unless someone can give a good reason why it should be there. --- Timo Honkasalo

If you search google in Japanese, you can get plenty of information about 103万円・130万円の壁. I know the title of that article looks odd but it is a real thing in Japan. -- Taku 19:12 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

To my disgrace, my knowledge of Japanese is restricted to the about 30 words I've learned in my Kendo practice. But since you seem already to have some knowledge on the subject, why not flesh out the article a bit. Right now, it tells practically nothing. --- Timo Honkasalo 14:52 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I should put more definitelly. Please just give me more time. I am doing research now. Wrong information is worse then absense of information. -- Taku 16:19 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

question is, what do English-speaking reporters call it (whatever it is) when they report on it? I somehow doubt they use the given name... :-/ Martin

I have same question and don't know the answer -:) -- Taku 23:10 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

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I strongly disapprove the sentence Men are increasingly adopting the role of homemaker. Unless someone will take care of finding a more twisted but proper and accurate sentence to express this, I will just remove the sentence as being strongly misleading. a Wikipedia:WikiWomen

I agree, this sort of statement desperatly needs a cite ("According to a research, Men are increasingly adopting the role of homemaker.." would sound more valid (in a junk science newspaper way...)) but I think we should think of a replacement for that statement... -- Rotem Dan 17:59 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

even better, in country xxx, according to the study from institute yyy, the number of hours men spent cleaning water closets and bathrooms during a year in 1960 and in 2000, compared to equivalent hours per women.

lol :) -- Rotem Dan 20:41 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the refactoring. :-)

Sources

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

an F for feminidiots - where the hell did $138K salary come from?

I am talking about this nonsense: "As of May 2007, the average annual salary of a housewife in the U.S, if correlated to the total cost of outsourcing each element of his or her work to an external contractor, would be approximately $138,000.[2] Working mothers would earn $85,876 annually for the "mom job" portion of their work, in addition to their actual "work job" salary." Use your head, folks! Nowadays there is any number of women who are unemployed and desperately looking for work. Some are even homeless. Well, do you REALLY think that hiring one of them as a full-time 40 hours per week visiting housekeeper is going to cost $138K per year? I mean, people, helloooo! Keep it off the books and you can probably do it for $10K or so, and no need to do waste money on the "full time" aspect either. 76.24.104.52 (talk) 02:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, if you took my salary, added a chef's salary for the food I cook, a network engineer for when I fix my PC, a car mechanic for the work I do on my car and taxi driver for when I drive my girlfriend somewhere, I would be a millionaire. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 03:38, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Florian Blaschke, I agree with the two editors above that this paragraph does not warrant inclusion. It's not a case of "I don't like it". The argument is simply flawed. If you look at that article, it claims that the housekeeper performs work that is worth USD 138k a year. But nobody is going to hire a full-time housekeeper for $138k a year. Most families don't even earn that much. See this page for more analysis. I feel this kind of bloated figure is sensationalist and not worthy of inclusion in the article. Banedon (talk) 01:18, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding the argument. It's just applying a figure to the work housewives are doing to make its economic value more palpable. Nowhere is it said or implied that housewives would actually realistically be paid this. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:57, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

As argued above, and in the link I provided, the economic value of the work housewives do is not anywhere near $138k / year. If you have a realistic figure calculated by some other method other than "parcel the job out into subtasks, calculate the salary for the subtasks, then total the result", please share it. Banedon (talk) 02:04, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

That's your POV, and that of sexist society (patriarchy, in feminist lingo) in general; you're begging exactly the question. Basically, you are still saying "I don't like/believe it". You are nitpicking, without actually showing that a superior method exists. Economic value is extremely hard to rate unbiasedly, anyway. In fact, I must point out that there is no objective, inherent value to things or activities. It's all about what people are willing to pay. (Some people may be willing to pay millions for a bucket of piss because they consider it a work of art. Others may be unwilling to pay anything for a ton of gold because they consider it completely useless. A humble, poorly paid activity such as trash collection or care for the sick and elderly, and even a completely unpaid activity such as organising a self-help group – or, you know, a productive activity on Wikipedia – is extremely important for society, while the actual value of the job of a highly-paid entertainer, monarch, lobbyist, top exec, lawyer, stock trader or banker to society is much more questionable.) This is the notorious dichotomy between what somebody earns vs. what they actually deserve to be paid.

Let's just keep in mind that a housewife is frequently close to "always on duty" (even virtually around the clock, if she's got children to care for), has no days off, tends to work longer hours than most other people, and needs diverse skills. Even actually replacing all of those tasks with hired household servants (nanny, cook, maid, etc.) is more expensive than you seem to realise (of course, the argument is that these servants are still underpaid because society undervalues work considered typical of women). And ultimately, your whole argument is pointless because Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Wikipedia can report that feminists have made this argument without endorsing (or criticising) it (it would be different if we were using Wikipedia's own voice); if you don't like it going unchallenged, find criticisms published in reliable sources. (No anti-feminist blogs.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:43, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

No, it's sourced. Did you actually read the link I gave you? Before you say it, that is not an anti-feminist blog. Banedon (talk) 13:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Self-published criticism is irrelevant. Nor are the precise figures relevant to the point – such a calculation will necessarily always be very approximate. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

As a compromise, I'll remove the part where the figures are given. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:16, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Self-published is fine if the author is an authority, and Professor Dutch is an authority on pseudoscience. I'm changing the source to a better one, and debating whether to include the figures and the criticism of it as well. Your thoughts on that? Banedon (talk) 13:34, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I'd be fine with the inclusion of both the figures and the criticism.

However, I still think that the figures as such are not very important, as they are only very rough guesstimates. They may well be somewhat inflated consciously, or their inflatedness be tolerated, to reinforce the point didactically and polemically, for shock effect, so to say, since an accurate figure can probably never be provided anyway (I've found no more accurate figures anywhere, in any case). Just as a quick back-of-the-envelope (or rather, mental) calculation, and without going into more involved issues regarding method and assumptions, from this source, I conclude that a figure of close to 100 hours per week (not just 40, as the IP above assumes!), which may mean up to roughly 5,000 hours per year, is considered realistic, and even assuming a relatively modest hourly wage (BTW, as I've pointed out and the IP missed as well, you'd need not only a housekeeper but a nanny too), an annual salary in excess of $100,000 (the figure strongly varies between the sources I've found) doesn't sound extremely inflated to me, and it would definitely add up to a handsome figure in any case. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:59, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

As Professor Dutch argued, that kind of six-figure number is ridiculous. Hourly rates charged by e.g. cleaning services take into account downtime when nobody is looking for cleaners. Just imagine what would happen if, in a divorce settlement of a couple one of whom is a housewife, the judge decided to award the majority of the assets to the husband on the grounds that the husband is only earning $50k / year while the wife can now earn $100k / year performing homemaking work for other people. We would never see housewives complaining they are getting shortchanged in this kind of settlement. If the figures are to be included in the article, it would have to be in the form "Various sources claim housewives do work valued at ___. This has been criticized because ___". Emphasis on the criticism, because the calculations are pseudoscientific. Banedon (talk) 01:26, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality

changed However, in today's society (at least in the Western World), this oppression has ended to. However, in today's society (at least in the Western World), more options are available. as I think the former violates neutrality and the latter is more accurate Tydoni (talk) 00:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

women should be the bread winner since it is proven they are smarter than us men —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.237.142.5 (talk) 18:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

in my experience there is no difference in intelligence between women and men it varies from person to person but their gender doesn't affect it

Tydoni (talk) 19:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Terrible Lack of Sources

I just challenged some unsourced material on "Feminist Critique" and I actually did it because i believe one or two of the claims actually DO have verifiable sources, but the rest is garbage and thus must be removed. Even in the second paragraph where it says "Some feminists, as well as some non-feminist economists" is a terrible appeal to the numbers mixed with an appeal to authority because the by saying that some feminists and economists, it sounds like lots of "authorities" (appeal to the numbers and to authorities, a conflated logical fallacy) are making this claim and then only a single author and her co author are cited as the many authorities. If there are sources for this claim, it would at least help not to justify this conflated appeal to large numbers of authorities but to provide those of us who are interested in more sources to read, which I think is a great idea. If anyone knows good sources for this material, please cite it, but please don't add third-rate websites or other sources. since this section is about feminist critique, prominent feminists (those who have published work that has been widely read by their feminist peers, like all good peer reviews) are the best sources for the critique, as would be the critics of the critics. But please, let's insure the sources themselves are good, no third-rate website from some propaganda site because this does not help further the cause of feminism. only good, disciplined research can battle all the misinformation that eventually bites everyone in the butt in the end anyways. I will try to find some sources, but being only a amateur follower of feminism, I may not come up with sources more experienced and scholarly students of feminism might bring. Skaaii (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree. Now I'm really not experienced in editing articles, but this does not seem to be a true, fact based article. In particular I note the 'What a homemaker does' section. Remembering everyone's birthdays? Really, that is hardly a task that is specific to a homemaker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.209.81.228 (talk) 15:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Homemaker in the Simple English Wikipedia

"Homemaker" has content which could usefully be included here. (Adding an "Expand" template has not worked.)--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 21:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Additions to the Housewife Page

I would like to update and add to this page to reflect the important and unique role stay-at-home women play in our society. I would especially like to focus on the impact housewives have on their children's future, as well as their impact on the overall economy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbarczak (talk • contribs) 05:42, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Rename article Homemaker?

Since homemaker is the broader term and this article does discuss male homemakers somewhat, can we rename it homemaker and have housewife redirect to it?JaneSwifty (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I think it is better not to rename it; one reason is that homemaker it primarily a North American concept and another that most of the content relates to societies or periods before "homemaker" came into common use.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I like Homemaker better too. I'm actually somewhat offended by housewife. TeeVeeed (talk) 02:59, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I think Homemaker is the preferable term, but if the article is renamed then it will need some substantial revision + the article Stay-at-home dad will need to be merged with it too. Banedon (talk) 01:01, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

As said above, homemaker is a North American concept. It would not fit a broader worldview. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

"Housewife" is factually wrong--the "house" is not the "spouse".Tachypaidia (talk) 18:47, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Sweden

Why not translate some information about the housewives of Sweden? (Expand + language is not obsolete)--Johnsoniensis (talk) 03:58, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Awful structure

Many of the sections can be combined, split, or simply left out. The section "Songs about the housewife's lot" is useless and frankly could be done without. "Notable women who were housewives" is far too vague and would be very hard to source. Its relevance is also debatable. Throughout the article there is stuff on history, which is spread between "History", "Housewives by country" and even "Sociology and economics". The "History" section itself is just one long line of text without any subheaders. Right now it's really tough to read. Sad, since Stay-at-home dad has such a good structure. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 21:50, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Dubious tag

As pointed out by an IP, [1], the housewives in China section is self-contradictory. The section cites no sources, hence the tag (outright removal also an option). Banedon (talk) 08:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

2017

In the beginning of the article the definition used for a "housewife" or "stay at home mother" seems to be close paraphrasing of the sources definition. A few words were added in between almost the same exact text as the source used. Although it was an appropriate citation of the source and the link was accurate, the paraphrasing was too similar. Also, the paragraphs including the roles of housewives in different countries are too different in lengths. The United Kingdom section does not compare to the lengthy section about the United States. -Jessica.moore75 (talk) 13:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Overly restrictive definition of housewife

The term "housewife" has been used both as a synonym for stay-at-home moms as well as to refer to childless wives who are not employed, other then in the job of taking care of the home. I was able too find a number of references via Google to the term housewife being used to refer to childless stay-at-home wives. We need to expand this article to include such wives in the definition inion. Secondly, we need to include the attitudes for and against the concept of housewives. This includes the views of certain feminists past or present that looked down on housewifery to at least some degree. It also includes the "in the kitchen, barefoot, and pregnant" types who believe all wives should be housewives not working wives whenever possible. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 17:09, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

"Stay" at home is misnomer

The prefix "stay" has a deprecating connotation: (a) commanded to "stay", as a command given to a dog, (b) a lack of freedom of movement. An "at-home" parent is not confined to quarters, but has substantially liberty--more so than an "at work" parent. An at-home parent may may visit friends and family as wanted; take excursions to the park, to the library, to museum, special events, et. al. This stands is stark contrast to an "at-work" parent where the employer owns one's time, and such visits require allocated leave time (if available) and by an employer's approval; otherwise, absence can be grounds for dismissal. We do not speak of "stay-at-work" parents; no reason (actually far less reason) to speak of "stay-at-home." For correctness, brevity and respect, simply "at-home" is proper. Tachypaidia (talk) 19:09, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

United Kingdom

This page could use information on housewives in the United Kingdom. I am currently working on this. (Loulou 1010 (talk) 19:21, 19 March 2019 (UTC)).

I have made edits to the United Kingdom section of this page by creating sections for the 13th-15th centuries and 19th-20th centuries. Information discusses women's role in politics, within their households, and society. Loulou 1010 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Is this article about housewives or about working wives?

So much of this article is dedicated to giving facts and figures related to how many wives work outside the home (see Housewife#In the United States in particular), that the focus of it has shifted away from housewifery, and instead onto two-income families and working wives. I accept that many housewives historically and presently do work outside the home, but this article is not meant to be about that based on the title. The focus has become unclear, so I'm tagging the article to raise the issue. I propose a split, especially the creation of a two-income family article. -- Netoholic @ 23:04, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be difficult to split up the article as suggested; the income of the households where there are housewives would be difficult to research given that social patterns vary so much within countries and between different countries.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 11:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Self-employed

Re "* Worldwide // ** The nature of a housewife’s role means there are few if any notable housewives. The ones listed below are all notable for other activities, by the nature of these other activities they are not housewives: Politicians, teachers, authors and athletes, among others, are careers and as such these are career women." The addition of one editor's opinion is inappropriate. If this section is unsatisfactory there should be a discussion about it on this Talk page.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 11:03, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Re: "* Worldwide // ** None if those listed below since every one of these was employed in a profession. The nature of the role means there a few if any notable housewives. " The information about these women will be found in their own articles and they are likely to have been housewives during some parts of their lives. Other editors have decided this listing is useful but I have no opinion about that. Like all articles this is a work of collaboration.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 14:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Not all housewives are stay-at-home mothers

The intro says that stay-at-home mother is a synonym for housewife, except not all housewives are mothers as the term is used in the real world. I can find references to childless housewives, sometimes known simply as stay-at-home wives. Given this, I think "stay-at-home mom" should be a subtopic of housewife and the debate about the the pro and cons of choosing to be a stay-ay-home mom of very young children (not of school age) can be discussed there, especially as it relates to whether such children turn out better if those who have a mom who works full time with the kids in daycare or under a nanny's care.Notcharliechaplin (talk) 18:47, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Rename to homemaker

The main article for this profession is homemaking. I do not see a reason to have a specifically gendered article name. Thoughts?--User:Namiba 15:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

This has been proposed before: see Talk:Housewife#Rename article Homemaker?.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

History section

While this section is well-written, i am concerned that it focuses on only the western world, even though the article seems to be about housewives "around the world." Does anyone have any suggestions as to how this can be improved? Then we can find sources, since the section is mostly unsourced. Drew Stanley (talk) 17:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

A major challenge is that the situation in the Western world is potentially quite different from other areas. A key differentiator is whether the home is a site of economic production. It is difficult to make statements that apply across these differences. Daask (talk) 16:00, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

It also repeats a lot of the Sociology and economics section.

Basically i don't know that this article is particularly informative espeically without sources Drew Stanley (talk) 15:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge with "Stay-at-home mother"

The term 'housewife' is limited, outdated and potentially offensive. The article should be merged with the more generic/modern term 'Stay-at-home mother', including to mirror the article 'Stay-at-home father'. Alby585 (talk) 10:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Merge with Stay-at-home mother

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, as the topics are sufficiently distinct to warrant separate discussion.

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Opening official merge request to coalesce this page with the Stay-at-home mother page since this topic has been mentioned a few times in this talk page. The topics are nearly the same, and any distinctions can be drawn out in later sections on the page. Stay-at-home mother is only in 2 languages, while this page is in 30, so my suggestion is to merge Stay-at-home mother into this page. Please support or oppose. Relspas (talk) 18:55, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: It doesn't matter what other languages do. We can figure out the links on Wikidata as needed. Daask (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: many housewives are not mothers.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 19:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Drew Stanley (talk) 15:36, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Stay-at-home mother is distinct from Housewife. "Stay-at-home dad" has a Wikipedia page. At-home parents, mothers or fathers, are not equivalent to "housewife" or "househusband." Parental care for children and time together are core reasons for at-home parenting. Please do not erase this essential meaning. FamilyandHomeNetwork (talk) 00:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Housewives may not even have children at all, while caring for children is the main focus of stay-at-home mothers. The difference in the two roles is unmistakable, and the proposal to merge the entries actually demonstrates why it’s so important to keep them distinct. People sometimes do conflate the two without considering the essence of the work of women who are choosing to care for their children at home. 2602:FE43:0:7F0B:A437:C97A:B561:4882 (talk) 01:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: A housewife does not necessarily have have children, while being a parent is a core function of being a stay-at-home mother. These two roles are distinct and should be treated as such. When these words are used interchangeably, meaning is lost. Let's not make that mistake here. Xsfeu (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.