Talk:1982 Lebanon War

I think the " Cold War Perspective " section is unnecessary

" According to Abraham Rabinovich, the complete dominance of U.S. and Israeli technology and tactics over those of the Eastern Bloc was to have been a factor that hastened the demise of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union.[80][82][dubious – discuss] However, this was not the first confrontation in which Soviet weaponry had been outmatched by American weaponry. In many of the Cold War conflicts[which?] the Americans and their allies had superior technology. Nonetheless, the gap between the First World and Second World weaponry was more apparent in the 1980s and weighed more heavily on Second World leaders. "

Implying the 1982 Lebanon War somehow contributed to Perestroika or the collapse of the Eastern Bloc is beyond silly, Soviet Military equipment was being used effectively in numerous other conflicts at the time and Soviet Military equipment/Soviet allies had always suffered higher losses compared to their American counterparts.

War? It was the beginning of occupation.

My comments from months ago in this topic were deleted on this talk page, which is weird.

Renaming article to 1982 occupation, instead of war.

Someone is using b o t to delete my talk comment.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

I request "Total Lebanese" in the Infobox for casualties3 be changed to "Total Casualties". This figure is from the Lebanese authorities. The article section (1982 Lebanon War#Lebanese, Palestinian, and Syrian casualties) makes it clear that this figure is for all casualties, not only Lebanese but also includes Palestinians. Thanks 92.26.8.150 (talk) 09:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Bunnypranav (talk) 14:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@EnfantDeLaVille: Why did you restore background information to the opening paragraph which must be kept neutral and general? [1] And why did you remove the Israeli military's role in facilitating the massacre, not just backing the Phalangists? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

What are your sources that Israeli forces faciliated the massacre, not just backed the Phalangists?

and what are you sources to your version of the text, that outrage at the Israeli military's role in facilitating the massacre led to its withdrawal?

Please share sources to your statements. I don't think they are supported by the majority of sources. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 10:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@EnfantDeLaVille: Sabra and Shatila massacre: "As the massacre unfolded, the IDF received reports of atrocities being committed, but did not take any action to stop it. Instead, Israeli troops were stationed at the exits of the area to prevent the camp's residents from leaving and, at the request of the Lebanese Forces, shot flares to illuminate Sabra and Shatila through the night during the massacre." Makeandtoss (talk) 10:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Listen, I think you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. But if you're absolutely sure that's what the majority of reliable sources say, do what you understand. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 11:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@EnfantDeLaVille: There are direct quotes from RS in the massacre's article supporting the claim, so I will restore that given your non-objection. I am still waiting for your response however on why background information was move up to the opening paragraph which must be kept general? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:26, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@EnfantDeLaVille: I will also take your non-response on the question as another non-objection? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Any other opinions? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I read the sources. They say nothing about IDF facilitating the massacre, that's false. Galamore (talk) 10:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: Lighting up flares in the night and surrounding the refugee camp while the massacre ensued is indeed facilitation.

• LATimes is an RS per WP: "As a purely gratuitous bonus, Sharon and his army later facilitated the massacre of hundreds of Palestinians at the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila," [2]
• Cambridge University Press book: "The IDF allowed the militia access to the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps and facilitated the massacre" [3]

@EnfantDeLaVille: As for the phrasing you mentioned, I am not changing the phrasing, merely asking why you restored background information to the opening paragraph where it does not belong? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:EXTRAORDINARY, "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources". Mentioning just two sources, one being an opinion article using 'whitewashing' in its title, and the other a paper exploring the radical-left group Breaking the Silence, is clearly not sufficient to support such an extraordinary claim, especially since it does not seem to reflect the prevailing view. This should be fixed too on the Sabra and Shatila article Galamore (talk) 10:30, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The assertions that the IDF provided illumination for the Phalangists, and that the IDF realised what was going on a long time before they stopped it are not in the least extraordinary. They are findings of the Kahan Commission. Zero^talk 11:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t understand, Israel’s illumination of the camps during the massacre and its encirclement are universally accepted facts even by Israel’s own state commission. There is no denying this. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow. Jumping from the commission's 'universally accepted facts' to the claim that 'Israel facilitated the massacre' (when the same comission found Israel 'indirectly responsible') reads like WP:SYNTH. and, applying the contentious 'facilitated' claim based on an op-ed and another source tangentially related to the topic violates WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Use of the term "facilitated" would need much much stronger sourcing to support that interpretation in a way that won't be synth or extraordinary. I don't see any base, at all, for using the framing suggested here by Makeandtoss. ABHammad (talk) 13:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

In no way is Israel’s role in facilitating the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres by surrounding the camps, illuminating them, and allowing Phalangists to commit the atrocities disputed or considered an “extraordinary” claim. This is undisputed in RS, even among Israeli sources:

• Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov, one of the world’s leading authorities on genocide [4]: “In 1982, hundreds of thousands of Israelis protested against the massacre of the Palestinian population in the refugee camps Sabra and Shatila in western Beirut by Maronite Christian militias, facilitated by the IDF.”
• Israeli Magazine +972 [5]: “During the 1982 Lebanon invasion, hundreds of thousands of Israelis took to the streets to protest the Sabra and Shatila massacre, perpetrated by Phalangist militias but wittingly facilitated by the Israeli army.”

Other RS:

• Ethics as a Weapon of War: Militarism and Morality in Israel published by Cambridge University Press [6]: “Several hundred Palestinians were killed in this massacre by the Phalangist militia. The IDF allowed the militia access to the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps and facilitated the massacre by launching flares.”
• A Landscape of War: Ecologies of Resistance and Survival in South Lebanon published by University of California Press [7]: “The massacre of Sabra and Shatila (September 16–19) soon followed, facilitated and overseen by the Israelis and implemented by the Phalangists and the Lebanese Forces.”
• Refugees of the Revolution: experiences of Palestinian exile published by Sage Journals [8]: “This deflation of hope began when the PLO was forced to leave Beirut in 1982, followed by the Israeli-facilitated massacres in Sabra and Shatila camps, the withdrawal of Gulf Arab support resulting from the 1990 Gulf war, and the 1993 Oslo Agreement which tended to ignore refugee agency and rights.”
• By all means necessary: Protecting civilians and preventing mass atrocities in Africa published by PULP [9]: “One high-profile case involved a criminal complaint filed in Belgium in 2001, against Israeli military officials including Ariel Sharon, then Prime Minister of Israel, for his role as Defense Minister in the 1982 massacre of hundreds of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila neighbourhods by Lebanese Phalangist militiamen, a slaughter facilitated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) then occupying Beirut.

Now that verifiability has been demonstrated, we can move on to more important matters. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Right. Of course this is what the Kahan Commission euphemistically called "indirect responsibility". There is no need for us to use euphemisms. Zero^talk 03:19, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Fringe view even if its supported by a few sources. +972 is a radical left newspaper, Omer Bartov is known for its controversial anti-Israel views (such as the endorsement of the genocide in Gaza claims weeks after the war started). The first source in the 'other' was already presented above by the way. In summary, having found a few sources that share the same sentiment and hold the same minority view does not make this perhaps verifiable claim something widely agreed upon in relevant scholarship (see WP:ONUS - not all verifiable information must be included) Galamore (talk) 05:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

It's the majority view, not a minority view. Adding another dozen good sources would be easy. You should move on. Zero^talk 05:43, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Please prove this is the majority view Galamore (talk) 05:46, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

How many sources have you brought? Zero^talk 05:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The ONUS is on those seeking to include disputed content. I agree with the above, a bunch of sources using 'faciliated' doesn't mean this is the majority view. Since this is clearly a hotly disputed content, and many of the sourced presented are only tangentially related / are opinionated, we need a neutral source saying clearly this is the mainstream view to include this info in the way proposed by Makeandtoss. ABHammad (talk) 06:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

No we don’t need that. Verifiability has been demonstrated and RS has been presented. There is no proof of another claim that Israel didn’t facilitate the massacre, the burden is on you to provide the alleged contradicting claim. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:46, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

No, the burden is on those seeking to include disputed content, even if they have found several sources that seem to support their own point of view. Most sources do not use this term PeleYoetz (talk) 11:27, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Provide some of them. Selfstudier (talk) 11:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

* "The militiamen predictably vented their rage; during two days they massacred at least 800 civilians, mostly Palestinians but also Shia Lebanese. Given Israel's supervision of its militia ally’s presence in West Beirut, global opinion blamed it for the latter’s behavior." (William Harris, Lebanon: A History: 600–2011, Oxford University Press, p. 245)

• "Israeli forces moved to take control of West Beirut, with the intention of finishing the PLO as a military threat. In light of heavy losses while fighting in Palestinian refugee camps along the coast it was decided that Phalangist forces would be responsible for entering the large Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. The result was that Phalangist militiamen, enraged at the assassination of their leader, moved on the camps. ... A massacre of civilians by the Phalange subsequently took place in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were in an area under the overall control of the IDF, on September 16–17. An Israeli commission of enquiry into the massacres found that Defense Minister Ariel Sharon bore “personal responsibility” for the massacre because of his having failed to take the “danger” that the Phalangists might commit a massacre into account when he permitted them to enter the camps." (Jonathan Spyer, Lebanon: Liberation, Conflict, and Crisis, ed. Barry Rubin, McMillan, p. 202)
• "Despite several high-level enquiries, official responsibility for the massacres remains unresolved. Israel pointed its finger at Elie Hobeika, a Falangist military leader: there are many who agree." (Edgar O'Ballance, Civil War in Lebanon, 1975-92 Palgrave McMillan, p. 119)
• "Estimates of the dead vary greatly from hundreds to possibly a few thousand. The Israeli forces, under Ariel Sharon’s command, were blamed for encouraging and, at minimum, not stopping the slaughter, given their control of access and entry to the area." (Tom Najem and Roy C. Amore, Historical Dictionary of Lebanon, 2nd edition, Rowman and Littlefield, p. 265)

The bottom line is that portraying the Sabra and Shatila massacre as "Israel facilitated the massacre" is a POV rather than an established fact. The sources provide a broader and more nuanced explanation. All agree that the Phalangist militias committed the massacre, while the exact role of the IDF is highly contested. Views range from (opinionated) accusations of facilitation, such as those presented by Makeandtoss, to more measured assessments that highlight Israel's failure to prevent the massacre rather than direct involvement or facilitation. PeleYoetz (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

All the sources provided do not negate the fact that the massacre was facilitated by Israel's illumination and its surrounding of the camp. This does not prove another point of view. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The sources provided do negate what you describe as fact. Facilitated means directly managed or encouraged. The sources make it pretty clear that Israel's role is debated with many thinking that while it failed to intervene, it did not facilitate the massacre. Surrounding a camp is not equal with actively facilitating the killing of its residents. Wikipedia is a neutral source, not a place for editors to choose and present only their favorite opinion ABHammad (talk) 07:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

None of the sources provided refute the fact that during the massacre Israeli forces surrounded the camp, illuminated it during the night, and that the camp was under Israeli control. These are universally accepted facts and are not disputed by any RS. Please provided sources to support your claims. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

If the issue is the word "facilitated", we can decide on a different word. But it will have a similar meaning since that is the academic consensus as well as the Kahan Commission finding. There is no rule that requires sources to use exactly the same words as we use, in fact we are required to paraphrase while maintaining the meaning. Personally I don't like one-word judgements but would prefer to spell out the facts. These include (1) the Israeli command was warned that a massacre would likely eventuate, (2) the Phalange went into the camps on IDF instruction, (3) the area was at all times under IDF control and the camp was surrounded by the IDF on 3 sides, (4) the IDF provided illumination through the night, (5) IDF personnel learned early on that a massacre was in progress but did not act to stop it. Worse accusations have been made but these are the proven facts. Zero^talk 13:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There's a clear gap between the advocated usage of 'facilitated' and the facts you present here (I'll let other people point the inaccuracies but as far as I can tell it seems correct). It seems that a more correct wording here won't be 'facilitated' (a clear violation of POV) but words such as "failed to intervene", "without the intervention of the IDF", and so on. ABHammad (talk) 07:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Those phrases and others similar can be easily summarized as "facilitated" but thinking about it, it would be preferable to make it explicitly clear that Israel was at fault. Selfstudier (talk) 11:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

easily summarized as facilitated, only if we ignore WP:SYNTH and WP:POV ABHammad (talk) 12:28, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the problem is that you don't know what "facilitate" means. It certainly does not mean "directly manage or encourage". I consulted five dictionaries and they all had a variation on "to make (an action or process) easy or easier". Zero^talk 12:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if that's what's the word facilitating means I think it is pretty clear that not all sources are on board with that. The more neutral ones say there is a debate about Israel's part of responsibility. What most agree on is that the IDF failed to intervene stop the violence, but using the word 'facilitated' based on just some of the sources is POV. Galamore (talk) 12:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said, we should make it clear, facilitate leaves it open to interpretation. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Without the contributions of two socks of a banned editor, there is a clear consensus in this section for using "facilitated". But I agree it would be better to spell out how Israel facilitated the massacre. nableezy - 21:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Three socks now. Maybe add clarification as part of footnote? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2024

Please spell out IDF at first usage and link to IDF page. Thank you. Bdbarb (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Rainsage (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2024

Change: The PLO defenders put up strong resistance and sometines used civilians as human shields. To: The PLO defenders put up strong resistance.

In the section "Advance on Beirut" in paragraph 5 there is a line with no source: The PLO defenders put up strong resistance and sometimes used civilians as human shields.

The specific claim that the PLO used "human shields" during clashes in the Rashidiya, Burj ash-Shamali, and al-Bass refugee camps is completely unsubstantiated and often employed to justify civilian casualties. I think any mention of "human shields" should be removed or at the very least, there should be a source for this specific claim. 71.247.2.234 (talk) 06:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done The citation supporting this should probably appear at the end of the sentence instead of the paragraph, but the ones at the end of the paragraph can be assumed to support the entire paragraph. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)