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Talk:Simo Häyhä

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Picture of Häyhä wearing a mask

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That picture isn't Häyhä. He never wore that sort of mask, he didn't use that swedish gun and never had a knife on the gun. That's a misinformation in that picture Karpalet (talk) 05:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2022

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That picture of Häyhä wearing a mask isn't Häyhä. Misinformation. That's a swedish volunteer. Karpalet (talk) 05:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This claim would need to be supported by a reliable source. WP:VERIFY --TylerBurden (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That claim inserting wrong picture in wiki would need a source too. There aren't a single picture of Häyhä wearing that sort of mask or that gun in any article, picture, detail, whatsoever. Häyhä also never used that swedish gun model showing in the picture. Completely false information about him. Karpalet (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The picture is included in reliable sources saying it is him, if you can't provide counter proof, then it's not getting changed. TylerBurden (talk) 19:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
National Geographic, considered a reliable source per WP:RS/P. Your turn. TylerBurden (talk) 19:16, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd show you a link for an article about that, but I can't link it here?

It's an article about that picture, where they published a coin with that picture and had to apologize for making a mistake. Karpalet (talk) 19:19, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can post the link here. TylerBurden (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In that finnish article, finnsih war history docent Pasi Tuunainen says a lot about that controversial picture. It's in Ilta-sanomat article, written in finnish.

There they open up about that person, and say it's falsely claimed to be Häyhä. And I believe more finnish historians, Museum of Häyhä, everything. Not in a single reliable source from Finland has shown that picture. Karpalet (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And in that link you posted, the source is said to be "archivos militares finlandese" -> there isn't that picture of Häyhä in any finnish war history photography archives. Not in a single one. Karpalet (talk) 19:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Everything in that picture is wrong by the time, most importantly that gun. Simo never, never used that 6.5mm mauser from Sweden showed in the picture. That gun doesn't exist in a single other picture of Simo. He used pystykorva, m/28-30.

That article isn't even a reliable source in terms of they used pictures found online. Karpalet (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again you're not offering any counter sources, only making claims. We don't add content based on what we personally think, we just add what the reliable sources say, National Geographic published that article and they are considered a reliable source. At this point I would say offer something concrete or drop it, because National Geographic is considered a reliable source, your original research (WP:NOR) is not. TylerBurden (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's a Swedish volunteer using a Swedish m/96 Mauser. The M28/30 Mosin Simo would've been using has a full length handguard and front sight protectors. The original captions says: "Swedish volunteer, “somewhere in Northern Finland,” protects himself from the sub-zero arctic cold by an eerie mask over his face in Feb. 20, 1940 while on duty against the Russian Invaders. The small holes in the mask through which the soldier sights his rifle. (AP Photo)". Link: http://www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/Watchf-AP-I-SWE-APHS372029-WWII/9ba789ea0f244b718e53dbceb1a4f5d0 Tenacious Trilobite (talk) 01:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is currently a server error for that site, I will check later. TylerBurden (talk) 03:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The site works now. The problem with that is that it is simply the overview given by the image selling website. Are there any high quality sources confirming the picture as a Swedish volunteer? Because with National Geographic saying it is Häyhä, Wikipedia policy abides by that per WP:CITE. TylerBurden (talk) 13:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That was the earliest source I could find. I tried to attack it from the other way by searching through the Finnish military archives last night. If that image is actually in the Finnish archives, then it isn't tagged with the Finnish words for sniper, rifle, Simo, Häyhä, bayonet, conceal, camouflage, mask, face mask, Swedish, volunteer, or any of the archive images from Jan 1 through June 1 of 1940. The rifle is definitely a Swedish m/96 Mauser with a Swedish bayonet, which directly contradicts the paragraph immediately under it in the Wikipedia article. It is very well known that he used an M28/30 Mosin, and all of the pictures of him with a rifle that I did see in the Finnish archives showed him holding an M28/30. At the very most, that is a picture of him holding someone else’s rifle. Tenacious Trilobite (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll remove the image because of the uncertainty surrounding this, it's possible National Geographic made a mistake. There are other images on the article depicting Häyhä for sure so it's not a major loss anyway. TylerBurden (talk) 15:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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The depiction of Simo Häyhä in the manga "Record of Ragnarok" isn't in the manga itself yet but rather it's on the manga's illustrator twitter, couldn't it be redacted to reflect that he hasn't made an official appearance in the manga yet? 81.226.239.213 (talk) 05:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's me again, I'm certain the redaction of that paragraph should be in future tense, something like... "He is also to make an appearence in the manga... "
"...however, official concept art is already public on..." 81.226.239.213 (talk) 09:54, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
https://twitter.com/record_ragnarok/status/1197068538126581762 81.226.239.213 (talk) 09:56, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The source for that part simply lists him as a "fighter" appearing in it. So unless you find a different (reliable) source for this future tense you want to include it can't be changed. It would need to be something better than a Tweet. TylerBurden (talk) 10:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is saying that he hasn't made an appearance yet a spoiler? Also i'm sure that whole section should just be a separate short paragraoh because it has nothing to do with the manga "The White Witch" 81.226.239.213 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kill count in the intro

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Hello, I was just wondering as to why the article assumes a baseline of over 500 kills by Häyhä in the intro pararaph. Sniper kills are often inflated as a tool of propaganda and the claim of only 200 kills as an estimate later in the article seems much more reasonable. While not an expert I would guess a wording of something to the effect of "over 200" or "between 200-500" would be more in line with Wikipedia standards. Although the 500 figure does have a lot of sourcing to it so I can see the other argument here. Ashemus (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You basically answered your own question at the end, most reliable sources go with the 500+ estimate, so per WP:DUE it is what should be the most prominent. That some sources have questioned the high number is appropriately covered in the relevant section of the article body. TylerBurden (talk) 15:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am only suspect of the number given as most sources, though reliable would have a motive for inflating the number. Simo was also surrounded by a lot of writers and propagandists for the Finnish military, such as his own company commander, through no fault of his own. Also, the claim of 500 plus kills means around 5-6 confirmed kills a day, every day, for 3 months. That number should need a great deal of evidence to support it, besides just the words of the Finnish military. I personally think there should be at least a discussion around this if the claim is to be kept. Ashemus (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The same argument can be made that other sources have motives for discrediting his achievements as a soldier, particularly Russian ones where that is most common for obvious reasons. I don't know how aware you are of Wikipedia policy, but Wikipedia goes with what established reliable sources say, which like I said tend to go with 500+. Note that it says "is believed to have killed over 500". Wikipedia doesn't state it as fact, which is appropriate since we can't confirm his exact number of kills. TylerBurden (talk) 02:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What I am doing is trying to reinforce Wikipedias reputation for using reliable, unbiased sources. No, I don't think quoting Russian sources is the response to this, if there even are any about Häyhä's time in combat. The article only uses Finnish sources to back up the claim which could be seen as equally unsubstantial for Wikipedias standards. There were thrid parties to this conflict, no contemporary sources are cited from them. It is well known that sniper kill counts are inflated as a tool of propeganda, which is something I don't think Wikipedia should be doing, as biased sources should not count as reliable. Ashemus (talk) 21:54, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well the established reliable sources that Wikipedia uses disagrees with you, if you want to change the way Wikipedia writes about historical topics, maybe you can do so at the WP:VILLAGEPUMP, instead of targeting a single article. TylerBurden (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly thats a pretty good idea when it comes to military sniper kill counts on this site. It seems that in the intros to the pages of snipers on Wikipedia the propaganda number is taken at face value with little questioning. I personally do not think the country of origins military is an unbiased enough source to use in claims like this. However I don't know if most people would agree with me on that. Ashemus (talk) 00:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to a translation of his own diary, he said himself that he had "~500" kills. Since this was a private memoir, I doubt he wanted to inflate it. But one thesis I saw speculated that he wanted to give a false kill count because he never wanted to reveal the real number in case someone found his diary. 76.150.239.123 (talk) 00:34, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in his memoirs he said "~500" kills", and described them as "sins" but he didn't specify in which way he made those kills! From his field chaplain Antti Rantamaa and his division commander A. Svenson, we know that he killed as many with SMG(and LMG) as with his rifle. Do people seriously think that Häyhä saw his kills with automatic weapon as lesser of a sin than killing with bolt action rifle? Coincidentally 259 + ~259= ~500. L0ll3r (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ashemus I recommend you cease trying to diminish this man's battlefield accomplishments and do not slander him, it reflects poorly on your character and honor... Jholmes2070 (talk) 19:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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