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Talk:Hungarian irredentism

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Requested move 15 May 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Rough consensus to keep the current title since "Greater Hungary" can also refer to the old kingdom. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 13:57, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hungarian irredentism → Greater Hungary – This is by far the most common way of referring to this idea. The search "Greater Hungary" -wikipedia gives me 49,200 Google results, while "Hungarian irredentism" -wikipedia gives me just 4,520. The former gives me 1,470 results in Google Scholar [1], while the latter, 455 [2]. Currently, the Wikipedia page Greater Hungary hosts a disambiguation page, and it says that the term may refer to this article or to the old Kingdom of Hungary. I am pretty sure most people wouldn't search Greater Hungary and expect to get the Kingdom of Hungary's page. Super Ψ Dro 16:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment/question. The article was moved from "Greater Hungary" to "Hungarian irredentism" in 2014 because "Greater Hungary" was considered a more ambiguous term seen that it can also refer to a historical Hungarian kingdom. What's your view on that? UlyssorZebra (talk) 20:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That Greater Hungary mostly refers to the irredentist project. At least in English. Super Ψ Dro 15:12, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If the name represents irredentism, is it WP:NPOV just to use it as the title? I see a significant number of sources in a Google Books search present the name with “so-called” or in quotation marks, implying that it is not a universally held conception. —Michael Z. 13:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
People can disagree with the concept. But if its common name is "Greater Hungary", I don't think there's anything to be done about it. And there's already countless of similarly titled articles. By the way, I've done a search in Google Books, and it seems the concept is mostly referred to without quotation marks. I didn't see any instance of "so-called". Super Ψ Dro 13:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Nagy Magyarország": I think the correct translation is: "big Hungary" and not "greater Hungary". Hungary had more or less the same shape, the shape of the Carpathian Basin/Arch for circa 1000 years, so not for some years like Nazi "Grossdeutschland" "big Germany" when Austria or Germany united, but for the previous centuries the historic term is Holy Roman Empire for "big Germany". When Hungary become smaller in 1920, it is not so surprising that the Hungarians called the new Hungary as "truncated Hungary" and today's Hungary as "small Hungary" and past Hungary as "big Hungary" when Hungarian talking about history to make difference. It not need to be irredentist when average Hungarians are talking about "big or small Hungary" because this is logical term and fact, that Hungary was bigger in most of its history, and now smaller. So saying "big Hungary" mostly means talking about history before 1920, historical times of 1800, historical times of 1500, historical times of 1300. Of course irredentists also use this term, but this does not mean all word usage would be irredentist. By the way I do not understand exactly what does mean "irredentism", becuase Hungarians was not irredentists before 1920, Hungary did not want any land, even the Hungarian Prime Minister, Count Istvan Tisza refused to attack Serbia in 1914, because he did not want more Slavic population which decrease the proportion of Hungarians in Austria-Hungary. But Romanians, Slovaks, Serbs were irredentists at that time, because they claimed territory from Hungary, and they claimed even more territory with full Hungarian population than the Treaty of Trianon got them. So basically the former Romanian, Slovak, Serbian irredentism caused the Hungarian revisionist politic for the next 20 years after 1920. For example A people want a land from B people, it means A people is irredentist. If A people got land from B people, and B people think this was unfair, the B people will be irredentist in this case? And if B people got former B people's land back from A people, then again A people will be irredentist? OrionNimrod (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Irredentism is simply the movement of claiming lands not already part of your country, specially if regarded as being lost or rightfully yours for X reason. Any Hungarian claiming a single centimeter from pre-1920 Trianon borders is indeed engaging in irredentism, and any of the surrounding nations claiming a single further centimeter from Hungary is also engaging in irredentism. But as you've said, not all of the use of the term Greater Hungary refers to the irredentist project, so we should add a note in this article if it is moved to specify that the term can also refer to the old kingdom. Super Ψ Dro 15:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see what you mean, in this case I think many today's countries have irredentists movements. OrionNimrod (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Officially few, but their populations are full of them. Specially in Europe. Super Ψ Dro 16:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, The current one is a much clearer title, in political and intellectual public discourse, the term "Greater Hungary" (Nagy-Magyarország) is often attributed to Hungary with pre-1918/20 borders, which was a historical reality, not just a nationalist concept or ideology. --Norden1990 (talk) 20:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As a Hungarian I can confirm this, mostly this is just a default historical term. In Hungary, if we talk about "Greater Hungary" (Nagy-Magyarország) we are thinking the history of Hungary before 1920. Which is a quite long period, circa 1000 years history with more or less the similar borders (with Croatia 900 years personal union). OrionNimrod (talk) 09:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't seem to be the common practice in English-language sources however. When searching Greater Hungary, I mostly see references to the irredentist project. There's a similar case in Wikipedia, Armenia. The long period during which it was bigger in history is also known as Greater Armenia in the country, while the irredentist project is United Armenia. And English-language sources seem to coincide with this, when searching "Greater Armenia", I mostly get articles about ancient or medieval Armenia [3]. Thus, the article Greater Armenia in Wikipedia is historical while United Armenia is about irredentism. But this doesn't seem to be the case with Hungary in English sources. Super Ψ Dro 13:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support unequivocally - in all cases of this project, articles dealing with the topic of irredentism, which relies heavily on existing home countries - ideologically, politically, economically, territorially - and where there is an active link between iridentists and home country politics and organisations, including vivid historical experiences, we title Greater XY (Albania, Croatia, Serbia, to name a few neighboring).--౪ Santa ౪99° 16:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - "Hungarian irredentism" is the neutral, descriptive and unequivocal title for this topic, q.v. Russian irredentism. It is always better that the title refer to the irridentist political movement, rather than the object of that movement ("Greater X"). Newimpartial (talk) 18:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - in theory that would be better, if we are dealing with an article which discusses various manifestations of XY irredentist movement, ideology and politics, but we have article which is mostly focused on the project of Greater Hungary and its history as a main project of Hungarian irredenta, as in which cases we title articles across the project with Greater XY. Of course, the perfect situation would be to have both ways - XY irredentism and Greater XY.--౪ Santa ౪99° 18:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. These two mean two different things. Irredentism means a territorial expansion where a certain nation lives, while Greater Hungary has rather more historic conotations. Thus, an irredentist Hungarian may support a much smaller territory than the Hungary used to be, or much larger one (with different borders than those historic ones). --Governor Sheng (talk) 18:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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