Talk:Landmark Worldwide

Citation style

The citation style used here drives me mad. it's inconsistent, and also a mixture of short form and long form citations, which can be justified sometimes for sources that aren't paginated but we are using them inconsistently with no rhyme and reason for whether they are or aren't paginated. Some of the sources are in the footnotes section, some are in the references section, some are in both duplicated, some are in one when they should be both. While given the contentious nature of the topic I can see why quotes are needed even more contentious topics don't have quotes on everything, much less free to read online news articles that you can click on (and maybe the same problem could be dealt with by holding POV pushers to account). Is anyone in agreement with me that there is an issue here? PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@PARAKANYAA: I had to use wikEdDiff to see what actually changed. Of course more consistency is always good. Have you seen https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Sub-referencing ? They say it will be made available soon. Polygnotus (talk) 08:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Polygnotus "soon" can mean many things for the WMF. Could be six months could be ten years. Not holding out hope.

As far as I see it, the standardization options we have are

1 - Standardize as sfns (harvnbs for citations that need quotes, which we should only be using for offline sources). The page uses a handful of these. Has the advantage of being able (with harvnb tags) to use multiple quotes for different references, however using non-paginated sources with this is weird to me

2 - standardize with r templates. I personally do not like r templates, but they are usable, and what most of the page uses already.

3 - mix of either r or sfns for paginated sources and long cites for non paginated ones, e.g. web sources. For an example of what this looks like with sfns, see any of the Order of the Solar Temple pages which I have worked on. Some people hate this, but I think it looks good

I would contribute to this page more if it didn't use the most cursed referencing ever. I am willing to do work to get it to whatever we want to standardize on, but we have to choose something. I personally would prefer option 3 with sfns. Thoughts?

I also think we should cut down on the amount of quotes, especially for free to read online sources. For ones that are offline or hard to access it makes sense but do we need a quote for the ones that you can read in a click? The whims of bad faith editors should not make it so we have to include a massive quote on every. single. reference. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Very true. I was led to believe it would happen this year, but no guarantees! I am here as a lightning rod for Avatar317; I haven't actually done anything with the article except remove some WP:PROMO. @Avatar317: what do you think? Polygnotus (talk) 03:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I am the one who has included quotes on every. single. reference. - that is my work; my reason being that in contentious articles like this I have often seen well supported text removed by those who don't like it, (maybe IP editors) and withOUT source quotes, uninvolved editors who are unfamiliar with the topic are unlikely to revert such removals unless the supporting text (the quote) is readily available in the viewable diff. Articles like this often see NON-good faith edits, where an editor will remove something with an edit summary like "not supported in the source" when in fact it is clearly and indisputably supported in the source.

Yes, the citations are inconsistent. The inconsistent style is something I was hoping to fix, and had thought of moving to sfn style (because of my (over)use of quotes), but editor Grayfell had commented that the r style is easier for new editors, so I hadn't gotten around to consistentifying the references.

The reason for the reference mess, from what I've seen from the ancient history of this article, is that a lot of this article (before I came to it) was written WP:BACKWARDS, whereby someone added a statement, and later people would add "sources" and then someone else would move those sources around.

Maybe choice 3 above? The Footnotes and References sections do need cleanup, and I never got around to de-duplicating those sections.

Thanks for your help here! ---Avatar317^(talk) 19:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

One additional comment: in comparison to the Order of the Solar Temple article, about a group with ~70 DEATHS from mass suicides means that there have probably been 10-100x the number of academic investigations into that group, vs. Landmark with >2M attendees and 0 known deaths. Most of the mentions in academic sources I have found on Google Books have been just mere mentions of Landmark as to where or what type of org it is classified as. There is some Israeli study specifically on the group, and the book Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training, but other than those, I've not seen academic research for which the entire focus of the work was a study of Landmark. ---Avatar317^(talk) 21:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

There used to be an article about this courtcase. https://horizonsmagazine.com/blog/estate-of-jack-slee-vs-werner-erhard-death-during-est-training-set-a-precedent-for-the-james-ray-lawsuits/ There were also a bunch of psychotic breakdowns attributed to the Landmarkians but they were mostly mine I think. Polygnotus (talk) 21:55, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Avatar317: Here ya go: Estate of Jack Slee v. Werner Erhard. Look at that AfD... now where do I remember those names from... Polygnotus (talk) 21:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Psychiatric disturbances associated with Erhard Seminars Training: I. A report of cases

Psychiatric disturbances associated with Erhard Seminars Training: II. additional cases and theoretical considerations

Observations on 67 patients who took Erhard Seminars Training

A psychotic episode following Erhard Seminars Training. Polygnotus (talk) 22:02, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Given the apparent bias AGAINST Landmark displayed by Polygnotus, Avatar317 and now PARANKANYAA, I feel compelled to question the intent of your edits. You found four abstracts from 1977 about participants in the now defunct est training - one of which even says that of 49 patients in treatment, 30 showed positive movement in their therapy following their participation. What point are you trying to make? You've moved the article from a balanced piece that includes mention of past controversy to one that has become heavily weighted with obscure references alleging evil intent. These arguments and citations all seem designed to prove a point - but nowhere have you been willing to state the rationale behind your continuing efforts. What are you trying to prove? Ndeavour (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Facepalm Thanks for dropping by after 5 months to let us know your opinion. Polygnotus (talk) 17:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome. And thank you for once again refusing to account for your point of view and engage in any discussion of it. Ndeavour (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Check out the Wikipedia:Task Center for suggestions on how to improve Wikipedia. Polygnotus (talk) 20:45, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, the biased editors aren't going to come out and account for their point of view, and a real discussion of that or the quality of the article is the last thing they want. Predictably, they will continue their tradition of replying to questions with sideways insults and nonsensical statements - and using Wikipedia policies to bully editors who do not support their POV. But if you keep standing for truth and accuracy, the gaslighting and manipulation will eventually fall down. Coalcity58 (talk) 16:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

RfC - regarding the neutrality of this article

Has the neutrality of this article been improved or compromised, by changes made since the lifting of Discretionary Sanctions in February 2022? Current:Landmark Worldwide Feb 2022: [1] Diff[2] DaveApter (talk) 14:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Dave, I recognize that you've dedicated two decades to removing negative information from Landmark-related articles on Wikipedia. While I respect your level of commitment, I respectfully suggest that redirecting our energies to other pursuits may be more beneficial for all parties going forward. More than 622560829 seconds (172933 hours, 7205 days) have passed since you first started pov-pushing and you are still unhappy with what you've achieved. If you are looking for a way to help Wikipedia, check out the Wikipedia:Task Center. Thank you. Polygnotus (talk) 01:27, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

On the RFC question, I think that some of the changes are fine, and others might benefit from some review, but I doubt that it's perfect. For example, the lead says this group is called a cult because it pressures current customers to recruit future customers. If that's the standard for a cult, then Melaleuca is a cult. If enthusiasm is enough to earn that label, then Tupperware is a cult. (As Dave Barry wrote, Tupperware dealers give standing ovations for plastic dishes.) There's more to being a cult than recruiting, and I don't feel like that is explained well in the body of the article.

But overall, I would not say that the article is worse now than it was then. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the reason it is considered a cult by some can be worded better. The reason is that it meets certain criteria. Polygnotus (talk) 04:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

What are the criteria you are referring to and what are the reliable sources that state that?Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd like to hear some specifics about those 'criteria' as well. Coalcity58 (talk) 20:10, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

What? No answer as usual? Coalcity58 (talk) 16:03, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:INDENT. And I could, in theory, explain some things to you but I am not so sure you'd be really all that interested, and it wouldn't be a very productive use of our limited time on this planet. Polygnotus (talk) 17:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting comment, considering the amount of your 'limited time' you blow on this. Coalcity58 (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Polygnotus (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• This isn't a neutral RFC. For the past several years I've contributed to discussions about the many problems with this article, and DaveApter has, superficially at least, accepted these comments. To now imply that the old version was better basically ignores those past discussions. It's honestly a bit difficult to assume good faith for this kind of behavior. To restate what I said last year, the article is significantly improved from where it was in past years. Obviously, as with every article, there is still plenty of room for improvement, but this improvement would be much better discussed based on specific and actionable proposals. Grayfell (talk) 20:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah the goal of the RFC appears to be to punish Avatar317 and others who worked hard to improve this article. Can we just close bad-faith RfCs or what is the procedure? Polygnotus (talk) 20:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a bit of a stretch to interpret my reply to you as "superficially accept[ing] your comments" (ie, implying that I accepted the state of the article at that time). What I actually said was:

"::I also agree with Grayfell that a total re-write of the piece may well be the way to go. The article is a mess, largely as a result of its history as an uneasy compromise from the battle between two factions with widely varied viewpoints on the subject. It is also handicapped by the fact that most of the "sources" are lifestyle and opinion pieces rather than factual reporting. Also many of them are written from a sensationalist and biased perspective, and rarely give clear indications of the primary sources on which they are based. DaveApter (talk) 09:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)"

Furthermore, the article has changed considerably since last November, diff: [3], amongst other things giving greatly expanded comment on the already undue weight dicussion of "cult accusations". DaveApter (talk) 09:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

That is not the first or only time we have interacted on this talk page. I was referring to Talk:Landmark Worldwide/Archive 32#Recent activity on this page where you at least halfheartedly acknowledged that the article had a problem with promotional language and filler. As asked, the RFC says nothing about about if the cult section was undue, and presenting that claim as an accepted fact in this discussion is misleading. If that is the main issue, you should've framed the RFC to be about that. As I said, this RFC is not neutral. Grayfell (talk) 19:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I never said it was the first or the only time we discussed this; I thought that was what you were referring to, since I did mention agreement (that a re-write might be a good idea). I see nothing in the link you gave here that implied that I was happy with the state of the article at that time, even if I did agree with a few of the points you made. I even made one minor edit at your suggestion, and that was instantly reverted by Polygnotus. DaveApter (talk) 16:54, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you were happy with the article, because the RFC is not about your level of happiness. The article was unacceptably bad before for reasons that you have at least partially agreed with. Grayfell (talk) 19:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

In this day and age, anyone can say anything and if it is repeated loudly enough, people believe it. The only way to counteract that is to provide evidence - and even THAT needs to be qualified. When writing for an encyclopedia, then at the very least every claim of "cult" that's been added should reference who made it, what qualifies them as an expert, what they mean by the term as used, exactly what evidence they provide and just what makes their opinion worth being referenced. With that kind of research, the reader can make informed decisions without the excessive sway of an author's point of view. Ndeavour (talk) 15:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

What you are proposing would introduce Wikipedia:No original research issues, among other things. Grayfell (talk) 19:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing to that link - but after reading through it, I mut ask: why do you think what I suggested falls into the pool of "original research?" My understanding of research includes sources such as textbooks, academic papers and the like as primary sources, versus magazine articles that range from using the world cult in the title but denying it in the article to essentially "some people say" where there's no mention of who or why their opinions are notable. Which, as I read it, makes it appear that those citing them are actually inserting "original research" into the article. Ndeavour (talk) 16:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source and as such, we strongly favor WP:SECONDARY sources. Further, textbooks etc. can be either primary or secondary sources depending on how they are used, and being a magazine article doesn't make a source inherently any less reliable. Additionally, if enough reliable sources repeat something loudly enough than Wikipedia will also repeat that, because Wikipedia summarizes sources. If we're asking editors to deep-dive into sources to evaluate the 'evidence', or so we can imply that a source is not a qualified expert, or so we can attempt to divine precisely what they mean by 'cult', we are introducing our own research into the article. There is a very important distinction between attributing sources and casting doubt on those sources based on our personal understanding of the topic. Grayfell (talk) 19:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Grayfell, I apologize for failing to express myself clearly; you actually expressed the point I was attempting to make. But I still have to ask, if a source fails to cite a primary source for the assertion that "some people say" things like "Landmark is a cult," how do they qualify as satisfactory secondary sources? What am I missing? Ndeavour (talk) 23:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources are considered reliable if they have a positive reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. Pragmatically speaking, this is usually achieved via editorial oversight, a history of retractions and corrections, and similar. Being cited by their peers can also demonstrate this reputation.

Sources are not, however, required to cite their own sources for any particular claim they make (nor would those sources be required to cite their own sources, etc.). Grayfell (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Everything you say there is correct Grayfell, but with regard to Ndeavour's first comment to which you responded, what they propose is not WP:OR, but very much the opposite, and broadly considered best practice by the community. Specifically, when they say "When writing for an encyclopedia, then at the very least every claim of 'cult' that's been added should reference who made it, what qualifies them as an expert, what they mean by the term as used, exactly what evidence they provide and just what makes their opinion worth being referenced.", that is is not original research but rather attribution. Now as you point out, we are not in a position to interrogate every secondary source as to their primary sources (or their methodology in general), and other than sources that are deprecated through RSN or other means because they have shown a consistently unacceptable level of reliability in terms of editorial control or some other red flag, we don't "look behind the curtain" into a source's reasons for making most claims.

But certainly where the information is highly controversial or otherwise WP:Exceptional, if we do have that information that Ndeavour was referencing (primary sources relied upon by the RS, what they mean by the term, the evidence they relied on) we should provide it, to some extent. And there are times where we might deem a label inappropriate (that is not to have passed a WP:WEIGHT test for inclusion), unless we have that extra context and/or unless multiple high quality RS use it. And needless to say, the other thing Ndeavour mentions there (attributing who the expert is an why their opinion on the issue has weight)--that is just common best practice and backed by multiple policies. So yes, there is a line that can be crossed in questioning sources where we dip into OR territory, but what Ndeavour is suggesting is not really that--or at least, not per se that.

Now what does that say for the "cult" label? Eh, that's complicated, and I'm not going to lodge an opinion on this page at this time. But I will say that, having seen this subject come up no less than five times over the last couple of months, and connected to as many different groups (at ANI, AE, and on talk pages for individual articles--guess the issue is just having a moment right now), I can tell you that my sense is that the community wants claims of a group being a cult to be both robustly sourced before the label even comes in, and then the opinion directly attributed to the parties making the claim, and with inline attribution, mostly. Take that impressionistic read for what you will. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 22:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said, there is a very important distinction between attributing sources and casting doubt on those sources based on our personal understanding of the topic. Whether or not this proposal crosses that line is ultimately subjective, at least not without a much more specific proposal. My goal was to explain a bit about how Wikipedia works to a relatively new user, and to explain one major potential pitfall.

If you want to discuss whether or not "Landmark has sometimes been described a cult" belongs in the lead as a summary of Landmark Worldwide#Accusations of being a cult, you should probably do that somewhere other than a response to a response to an RFC about a much, much broader issue. As I said, this isn't a neutral RFC. Grayfell (talk) 21:45, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

"there is a very important distinction between attributing sources and casting doubt on those sources based on our personal understanding of the topic."

Yes, that's true, which is why virtually the entirety of my post was about making that distinction and indicating where the divide lays. But I'll be honest with you, I don't see how, in interpreting Ndeavour's initial comments, you arrived at the conclusion that they were advocating for casting doubt on sources. It looked like they were arguing simply for normal attribution and inline discussion of the source's credentials to me. Which, again, is simply best practice in cases of potentially controversial statements, and not OR.

"My goal was to explain a bit about how Wikipedia works to a relatively new user, and to explain one major potential pitfall."

Fair enough. But I do get the feeling that they understand the difference between the advised and proscribed practices, and I think you two ended up talking past eachother.

"If you want to discuss whether or not 'Landmark has sometimes been described a cult' belongs in the lead as a summary of Landmark Worldwide#Accusations of being a cult, you should probably do that somewhere other than a response to a response to an RFC about a much, much broader issue. As I said, this isn't a neutral RFC."

No, as I pretty expressly noted in my comment, I don't wish to weigh in on that topic and my observations were entirely meant to clear up some confusion that seemed to be occurring between the two of you. As to the RfC prompt, it looks perfectly neutral to me, but it does have another major issue: it's far too vague and broad. Which is why I recommended below that the OP consider closing it and making another with a much narrower inquiry or proposal, a little over 24 hours ago. I do think this discussion was bound to lead to unproductive discussion because of how it was framed (albeit in good faith), and it's good the OP is withdrawing it for something more pointed, but meanwhile I think Ndeavour's recommendation to which you initially raised concerns is more or less a good one, and consistent with core policy. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I suggest that people commenting here read through the Arbcom case that created the discretionary sanctions - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=643800885#Motion_.28Landmark_Worldwide_discretionary_sanctions.29 Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting pattern. Accounts lay dormant, often for months, and suddenly there is a flurry of activity where they all show up to support eachother. Not suspicious at all. Polygnotus (talk) 21:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

And who's talking here? The word pot, kettle and black come to mind... Coalcity58 (talk) 16:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I recently created the User:PolygnotusTest account. It is pretty interesting to see all the linkspammers. Polygnotus (talk) 16:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Who knows, PG--you could be right. But regardless, this is not the place to discuss it, and it's somewhat ABF and WP:aspersion-leaning to just make the implication. If you have proof, or even very substantial suspicions, that someone active on this article is violating policy, then take the matter to ANI, AE, or SPI, as appropriate. Some degree of comparing notes may even be acceptable in user talk, if it's for purposes of sock-busting. But here, that kind of commentary accomplishes very little other than to tip-off bad actors if you are correct and unnecessarily poison the dialogue if you are wrong. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 22:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

• DaveApter, I believe this RfC was created in good faith, so I'm not attacking it on the same terms others have raised here, but I do think it is sub-optimal regardless. Ideally RfCs should have as narrow a scope as possible and address very discrete issues which, if a consensus is reached, could lead to an immediate solution. In most cases, this means making a very specific proposal that respondents can !vote up or down or a very straight-forward question about a specific editorial dispute. It's not strictly speaking a necessity that your prompt contain one of those two things, but the very, very broad question you have asked (essentially "Have all the changes made to this article in the last three years mad it more neutral/accurate?" is not well-calculated to lead to any immediate concrete improvements. It's more likely, actually, that it will just inflame opinions further and make the parties more polarized and entrenched. Perhaps you can withdraw it and consider a couple of more concrete questions about specific changes that respondents could provide feedback on, and then hold one RfC at a time on each? SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:11, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Snow Rise: Thank you for all the helpful and constructive comments. I am not experienced with RfCs, having only raised them a couple of times and that was more than a decade ago. I have closed the RfC (If I have understood the instructions correctly). I will probably raise another shortly as I feel there are still numerous issues here; but I think this discussion did home in on perhaps the most egregious one. DaveApter (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Cult explanation in body

Rather than discuss this in the RfC I'll start a new section:

@WhatamIdoing: What do you feel like is lacking in the BODY about the cult explanation? (I'm not saying you are wrong in any way.) Should we include what experts say are some central/defining features of cults? The current body statement Several commentators unrelated to Landmark have stated that because it has no single central leader, is a secular (non-religious) organization, and it tries to unite (and re-unite) participants with their family and friends (rather than isolate them) that it does not meet many of the characteristics of a cult. lists characteristics of cults but in the negative, (why Landmark isn't) which may be confusing...should we have a preceding statement listing the common characteristics of cults? (There is enough sourcing to do that.)

Do you have any other suggestions?

Additionally, here's what I see as a complication: Landmark has been described in media as having a public reputation as a "cultISH" organization, and that reputation seems to be more among the general public than among scholars; scholars have characterized it variously: NRM, etc., and many scholars have explicitly said that it does not meet cult characteristics, though Landmark did get kicked out of France and listed as a cult there.

Maybe once we improve the body wording, it will be easier to apply a concision function to that for the lead statements. ---Avatar317^(talk) 05:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

many scholars Who are we talking about? Singer said she did not consider it a cult after getting sued, but also that she would not recommend the group to anyone, and would not comment on whether Landmark used coercive persuasion for fear of legal recrimination from Landmark. And Abgrall got a decent sum of money: Abgrall wrote a report on the organization arguing that they were not a cult, arguing that they were a "harmless organization", though did conclude by recognizing that the group may have had some warning signs. They were removed from the list; from the period of 2001 to 2002 Abgrall had been paid €45,699.49 by Landmark.. We could also count Jensen, although he does not claim to be an expert in this matter he is a scholar, but Jensen credits Landmark with restoring the relationship with his daughter so I don't think he is independent. had taken a Landmark course in Boston at the suggestion of his daughter, who mended a rocky relationship with Dr. Jensen after taking the course herself. Pretty much every independent scholar considers it an NRM. People in academia don't really use the word "cult", they use "New Religious Movement". I don't think we have to include a list of defining features of a cult, that would be more ontopic in the article cult. We can simply say it meets certain criteria which is why some people and organizations consider it to be a cult, and it does not meet others which is why some disagree. Its a bit like the DSM, you don't have to check all the boxes in order to get a label. Polygnotus (talk) 05:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

What I noticed was much simpler than that. The lead says:

Landmark has sometimes been described a cult, because of their attempts to convert participants to a new worldview and their recruitment tactics: they do not use advertising, but instead pressure participants during courses to recruit relatives and friends as new customers.

but Landmark Worldwide#Accusations of being a cult says nothing about "attempts to convert", "a new worldview", "recruitment tactics", "advertising", "pressuring participants", or "recruiting relatives and friends".

There are complaints in the article about (e.g.,) recruiting pressure, but those complaints are not related to being a cult. It may be true (and explained in the body) that they have sometimes been described as a cult. It may be true (and explained in the body) that they try to change people's ways of thinking and pressure paying customers into recruiting more customers. But there's no "because of" in the body to connect the parts of this sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: Sorry, I should be more clear. I agree with you, in the RfC section above, and here I responded to Avatar317's use of the words "many scholars". I did dive into the sources and for example people like Dinesh Bhugra (a well-known expert) describe Landmark as a NRM (in Psychiatry and Religion Context, Consensus and Controversies). Looking at the Sociology sources, the large majority uses "NRM". The only exceptions I can find is Renee Lockwood who describes Landmark as a corporate religious form, a religio-spiritual corporation and a corporate religion (which is less standard terminology). Outside of academia everyone (journalists, writers, cult experts, every Tom, Dick and Harry) uses "cult". If we want to give a reason why it is considered a cult, which I am not sure it is necessary, then it would be that it meets certain criteria to be classified as such. But its probably easier to leave that out. Polygnotus (talk) 07:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

We could separate the two halves of the sentence. Instead of "it's called a cult because recruiting pressure", we could say "It's called a cult. Also, there's recruiting pressure." WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Polygnotus (talk) 03:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the next editor (whether you or someone else) who thinks this would be an improvement would implement that change. It should be pretty simple just to split it into two sentences. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m very busy right now so I can’t be much help with this but I think it would probably be much clearer if we expanded on what it is they actually do that people don’t like, vs terminology. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Your point - expanding on behaviors by Landmark that people have complained about instead of slapping a non-objective label on them - makes very good sense.  I find that in the sources cited, there are two primary issues: 1) asking participants to invite guests, and 2) asking participants to register into another Landmark program.  Are there any other constant and consistent complaints from reliable sources? Landmark claims over 3 million participants since its inception; one would expect that if those behaviors were truly insidious then volume of complaints would have taken the business down.  But it still exists. Ndeavour (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

What you are trying to do is WP:OR. The sources explicitly say that Landmark is "cultish" or "has characteristics of a cult", and because sources say that, that is what the Wikipedia article should say.

When doctors say that the symptoms mean that the patient has disease X, than that is what we report on here. Your attempt to say: but they only have symptoms of "sore throat and runny nose" doesn't mean you get to write a Wikipedia article that says things contrary to what the sources say.

You have clearly not read enough sources to understand that there are many more reasons that Landmark has been seen as a cult; some of those additional reasons are that they try to convert participants to a new worldview, and they use high pressure techniques to try to "break down" participants' resistance to change/acceptance of this new worldview.

Again, per policy, we paraphrase sources. ---Avatar317^(talk) 23:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven’t read much of this, and am hellishly busy ATM, while I’m not disputing that, adding that they’re called a cult while not adding the reasons they’re called a cult is a bit of putting the cart before the horse. So that should probably be done to improve the article, why they are criticized. Will make more sense. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@PARAKANYAA, no worries: we'll be here when you're back, even if that's weeks from now.

@Avatar317, I don't think I've quite understood your comment. You say The sources explicitly say that Landmark is "cultish" or "has characteristics of a cult". Are you arguing that it's a violation of NOR for the lead to say (as it currently does) "Landmark has sometimes been described a cult"? There is a gap between "cult-ish" or "cult-like" or "characteristics of a cult" and saying that it's actually been labeled a cult – a straight-up cult, with no "-ish" about it and no weaseling about it only having some "characteristics of". If we're going to say "cult" instead of something a little vaguer, then we do need sources that say this explicitly.

More relevant (to my original point above), we currently have some language in the lead that says "a cult, because of". The reasons given in the lead are flimsy (they're a cult because they don't pay for advertising? Seriously?) and are not described in the body per WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY.

I want to be clear: I've got no inherent objection to calling them a cult (assuming reliable sources support it, etc.). I'm primarily concerned about the "because of" part of the sentence. Are reliable sources seriously calling them a cult because of their choice not to pay for advertising? If not, then we should fix that so it sounds less like the Wikipedia article was written by some shadowy Advertising Illuminati. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The only mention of the word "cult" in the sources cited are as follows:

The Colorado Springs article says:

"It is this rapid, often uncontextualized sea-change that friends and family see in Forum graduates that has led some to call Landmark a cult, a claim which Landmark has vigorously disputed... On this point, at least, I agree with Landmark. Having thoroughly researched the company over the past month I have come to the conclusion that they definitely aren’t a cult,"

The Observer article (possibly the only sober balanced piece of journalism in the list) says:

"Landmark has faced accusations of being a cult, but I saw nothing of that. Far from working to separate us from our families and friends, we were told there was no relationship too dead to be revived, no love too cold to be warmed."

The Eileen Barker essay doesn't actually mention Landmark, but says:

"Erhard Seminars Training (est) and other examples of the human potential movement joined indigenous new religions, such as the Emin, Exegesis, the Aetherius Society, the School of Economic Science, and the Findhorn community in the north of Scotland, and a number of small congregations within mainstream churches were labelled 'cults' as they exhibited some of the more enthusiastic characteristics of new religions and their leaders"

The Spears article says:

"And now to that important question: is it a cult, brainwashing and evangelical? Cross out the first two; tick the third (but not in a literal, bible-bashing way — it’s just that there’s a lot of American hard sell)."

The Mother Jones article, although generally disparaging, does not mention the word "cult" at all.

Does this amount to adequate support for the extensive editorialising on this issue, much less its inclusion in the lead?

It is worth mentioning that one of the findings of the Arbitrators ten years ago was that

"2) As discussed by editors providing evidence in this arbitration case, rigorous academic sources for the topic are few and far between,[35] meaning claims more often rest on weaker sources or claims from the organization in question."

These references are, indeed, mostly somewhat sensationalist and cynical in tone. Furthermore, this handful of source are cited for about a dozen assertions in the page, and not just the cult issue. DaveApter (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to check all those sources and post the quotations. I really appreciate it.

It sounds like the "because of" aspect is a complete {{failed verification}} problem. We therefore cannot say that. Whether we should use the word cult at all is a separate question, but since zero sources give a "because of" statement, we can't actually state our own conclusions about why this label was (sometimes?) applied. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all of your improvements, Thanks!! and I think the article is better now, so I'm NOT suggesting any changes to the lead here.

I just wanted to point out though, that the quote from above It is this rapid, often uncontextualized sea-change that friends and family see in Forum graduates that has led some to call Landmark a cult, does give a "because of".

Also, this quote, which has to do with brainwashing, another characteristic the public often associates with cults: Even professional cult buster Ross agrees that Landmark isn't one. "I'm a relative conservative on the issue of defining a cult," he says. "In my mind, I look for an absolute authoritarian leader . . . I just don't see any parallel with that type of leader in Landmark." The company does not meet many of the conventional definitions of a cult. Landmark does not require its members to turn over their personal assets, except the cost of tuition. Landmark does not cut people off from family and friends, there is no communal living situation, nothing to worship, and participation must be voluntary. But does Landmark wash brains? That is an entirely different question. In an article titled "Coercive Persuasion and Attitude Change," Richard J. Ofshe, professor of social psychology at UC-Berkeley and co-recipient of the 1979 Pulitzer Prize, defines coercive persuasion, or brainwashing, as "programs of social influence capable of producing substantial behavior and attitude change through the use of coercive tactics, persuasion, and/or interpersonal and group manipulations. [and more in the following paragraphs]" https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/drive-thru-deliverance-6419949

Again, this is just to respond to the "failed verification" question, not a suggestion for changes. Thanks again WhatamIdoing! ---Avatar317^(talk) 22:28, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"Is this a cult?" book by Anne Peterson

"After nearly twenty years inside a popular self-help organization, Landmark Worldwide, Anne Peterson finally confronted the big lie behind the transformative work she believed in. What she had taught as empowerment, it turned out, was also being used to exploit.Is This a Cult? offers hope to all who wonder whether their quest for growth has a dark side. If you’ve ever questioned leaders you once believed in, you’ll find insight in Anne’s inspiring tale of rebuilding integrity in the shadow of charismatic leaders." https://isthisacultbook.com/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CWZG6R39/ Kistano (talk) 07:32, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, however it is self published and not considered a reliable source on Wiki. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 19:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Review of editing over the past year or so

A year ago, I made the following remarks on this page

===Background===

This page has been a wp:battleground for many years. There have been numerous edit wars between those who feel that the page was at times overly critical of Landmark and those who felt that it was insufficiently so. Both sides claimed that the other was violating the wp:npov policies and that they were attempting to restore neutrality. Many of the editors on both sides were blocked for violations of Wikipedia policies, in some cases indefinitely. There have been many resorts to mediation and other dispute resolution procedures, including an extended arbitration process in 2014, which resulted in a number of editors pushing anti-Landmark material being blocked or otherwise sanctioned, and the page being placed under restrictions for a time. A good deal of work by non-partisan editors and admins resulted in an article which had a broad degree of consensus, and it has been largely stable for some time now. It is a well established Wikipedia practice that significant edits to a page with a history of controversy should be discussed beforehand to check whether or not there is a broad consensus for the proposed changes. Recently there has been a flare-up of wp:contentious editing on the page, all without prior discussion here.

Twelve months on, the contentious editing has continued and intensified. Two editors appear to be imposing effective ownership over the page. Avatar317 has made 153 edits in the article and 41 edits on this Talk page. Polygnotus has made 23 edits in the article and 200 edits on this Talk page - article edits generally made without prior discussion. Most edits by others who do not share their viewpoint have been promptly reverted, sometimes multiple times and sometimes by the two of them acting alternately in Tag Team style. Polygnotus has made it clear that his own opinion is that Landmark is a "cult" here [4] and here [5] and here [6], yet has refused to clarify what exactly he means by that term, or on what evidence he arrived at that judgement, or why he is so determined to have this viewpoint represented so strongly in the article. DaveApter (talk) 16:13, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

After 2 decades it may be time to drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. The DaveApter account made 445 edits on this page, rank #1. And 323 edits on the article. To see the full scale of the pro-Landmark operation we'd have to look at dozens of accounts (many of which have been blocked) and pages (many of which have been deleted). Polygnotus (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you - so you're confirming that the latest in a long line of anti-Landmark polemicists has made edits, in around a year, amounting to over 47% of my total contributions over 20 years? To put this in perspective, I've made precisely four edits to the article in the past twelve months (which were all instantly reverted by either you or Avatar317), and about 60 in the last ten years, an average of 6 edits a year. DaveApter (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Edits to improve an article are not equivalent to edits to WP:BADGER, WP:CPUSH and sealion. Polygnotus (talk) 15:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

RfC - Undue weight given to 'Cult accusations'?

Is Undue Weight being given to the issue of "Cult accusations" in the light of the references cited in support of these claims? DaveApter (talk) 15:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Please don't waste people's time with pointless RfCs. You have wasted an insane amount of time of our volunteers.

If I was a member of a group that got repeatedly labeled as a cult I wouldn't spend more than 19 years and 10 months trying to remove all negative information from its Wikipedia article. That proves the point, right?

If you dislike the fact that reliable sources have published negative information about Landmark/Est/Erhard then you should contact those sources, not WP:CPUSH on Wikipedia. Polygnotus (talk) 15:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@DaveApter No, there is not undue weight being given to its accusations of being a cult.

It provides multiple sources and explanations as to why some experts believe this characterisation to be fair. Neither does the characterisation appear to be fringe.

However, I do think that the section on its characterisation as a cult be put later in the article. Imo the sections about it's characterisation as a self-help corporate training should come first. When reading the article and learning of it's characterisation as a cult, I was unsure as to what the group actually did. I think the subsection under 'history' should be moved under 'reception'.

FropFrop (talk) 22:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The cult/NRM stuff is probably the most important part of its history, because Landmark is a successor to another cult/NRM. Currently the focus is far more on making money and less on the culty-stuff. Hiding all negative information in a section near the bottom of an article is discouraged. Polygnotus (talk) 10:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@FropFrop:, Thank you for joining with the debate, but I am puzzled: which "experts believe this characterisation to be fair"? I did not see anybody named - "expert" or not - in the cited refs (relevant extracts quoted recently a little higher up this page). Furthermore, almost all of the writers went on to say that in their opinion, it was 'not a cult. Did I miss something? Did you actually read those refs? DaveApter (talk) 12:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@DaveApter

Apologies, I was a bit flippant in my response.

It would have been better for me to say "Various sources, including some cult-experts, have characterised it as cultish, cult-like, etc."

Even though most/all went on to retract or amend their statements, I think the section is well balanced and contains encyclopedically-relevant info.

FropFrop (talk) 23:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

See this comment. There are, as far as we know, only 2 scholars who said it was not a cult, one was a grandmother who got sued by Landmark and bullied and threatened by Scientologists who said she would not recommend the group to anyone, and would not comment on whether Landmark used coercive persuasion for fear of legal recrimination from Landmark. and one is an economist who credits Landmark with restoring the relationship with his daughter and is therefore not independent. Turns out Abgrall says he never expressed an opinion one way or the other in the documentary (and he got paid over 45.000 euro by Landmark). Every independent commentator calls it either a cult or a New Religious Movement (a newer term that some sociologists use). Polygnotus (talk) 23:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm don't think the issue here is "undue weight", since a large portion of what makes Landmark notable is that it tends to attract either very negative or very positive opinions of those who have interacted with it. So the "cult allegations" are a key part of the notability. Our presentation leads something to be desired, however, as a whole this article does not do a great job at explaining this. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I am glad to see this RFC. I see people talking about references saying Landmark is a cult, but I don't see the actual references. I recall a NPOV message board thread I commented on about a year ago that started with the assertion the Landmark is a cult stated as a fact. Since then there has been an attempt to incorporate that into the article. That is original research if I am not mistaken. If there are actual reliable sources that unequivocally call Landmark a cult, they can easily be copy and pasted here for everyone to discuss. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This has been debated over and over for years. References have been provided many times. To demand that everything is spelled out for you yet again in 2024 after 20 years of debates, when you can simply check the article or the talk page history (or use Google) is unreasonable. No sources will ever be good enough for the cult members. Not even the Parliamentary Commission on Cults in France (1995, 1999) and the Senate of Berlin (1997). I understand that people like their favourite soccer team or country or religion or hobby or cult or whatever, but why deny the reality that others have a different opinion? You have my full permission to dislike my favourite music artists/movies/country/et cetera. Why can't the cultmembers agree to disagree?

Proving or disproving that it is a cult is not what we do here on Wikipedia. That would fall under original research. So we only need sources to prove that it has been called a cult. And you already know that it has. Polygnotus (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Now that you’ve resorted to name calling, revealing a decided lack of neutrality, it is clearly appropriate that DaveApter has requested another RFC.   I initially found myself in some agreement with you ("proving or disproving that it is a cult is not what we do here on Wikipedia"), but only to a point.  As an editor, haven’t you agreed to validate the edits you make?  To assess cited resources for accuracy and credentials? Or have you merely looked for “evidence” to support what your “cult members” references reveal to be an obvious point of view?     Ndeavour (talk) 18:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Ndeavour. Openly insinuating that other editors are "cult members," without a shred of evidence supporting such a remark, would seem to clearly demonstrate your own bias in this matter and belie your statement that this argument is not about proving whether Landmark is a cult. If you're calling others cult members, then it seems clear that you believe this organization is a cult and, therefore, cannot claim neutrality in this discussion. Coalcity58 (talk) 18:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting pattern. Accounts lay dormant, often for months, and suddenly there is a flurry of activity where they all show up to support eachother. Not suspicious at all. Original here. Time is a flat circle. Polygnotus (talk) 21:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

You'll forgive me for being a bit jaded, because I have seen this all before. Multiple times. Polygnotus (talk) 21:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that this RfC has generated so much in the way of accusations and aspersions, and so little discussion of how to address the question within the framework of Wikipedia's policies. In particular, the relevant section of the WP:NPOV policy states:

* Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources.

Undoubtedly, some people do hold the opinion that Landmark is a "Cult", but who are they? If they are no more than anonymous internet discussion commenters or bloggers, do they deserve this prominence in an encyclopedia? If they are notable individuals, then it should be possible to find reliable sources who identify them and attribute the opinion to them. None of the existing references do so. Several assertions have been made in the foregoing discussion for which no sources have been offered, for example: "Various sources, including some cult-experts, have characterised it as cultish, cult-like, etc." So what are these sources and who are these cult-experts? I could not find either of these terms - 'cultish' or 'cult-like' in any of the refs. DaveApter (talk) 13:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You keep repeating your claims over and over again, but that does not make them more true. Your repetitive questions has been answered many times over the past decades.

Wikipedia's role is to summarize existing reliable sources rather than create new content. If you disagree with how a topic is currently covered, the most effective approach would be to:

1. Work with reliable, independent sources to publish new, more positive, coverage
2. Request corrections from existing sources if there are factual errors

Once new coverage exists in reliable sources, it will then be incorporated into Wikipedia articles.

I have read many Wikipedia articles I (partially) disagree with. But I can't remove well-sourced neutral information just because I think it is bullshit. And I can't go around deleting the research of scientists I dislike, or the quotes from politicians I dislike, or the mention of groups I dislike.

This damnatio memoriae-approach is incompatible with Wikipedia's goals.

If you want more information about FropFrop's statement you should contact FropFrop on their talkpage. Polygnotus (talk) 15:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You keep saying that Wikipedia must summarize what the sources say, but the section on cults goes far beyond what is stated in the cited refs. Yes, "some people say" is commonly accepted in some quarters as authoritative - but not when it comes to providing an impartial record. If some people say you are a giraffe, are you a giraffe? What does it say about the poster who inserts that in an article? "Some people say" is an excuse to insert opinion. I don't read where anyone is saying that the accusation against Landmark be removed - rather that it be acknowledged and given the weith of gossip. Put in perspective. Ndeavour (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

If basically every independent observer who has ever written about me mentions that I am considered to be a giraffe, then that fact is worth mentioning in the Wikipedia article about me, no matter if you or I agree with it. Most giraffes lack artistic ability, although their tails look deceptively like paintbrushes. The article does not say that Landmark is a cult. Do you think we should remove all negative opinions about all article topics everywhere on Wikipedia? Or just about the topics you like? You stated you have done Landmark's programs and have participated for quite some time, but perhaps (since the word "worldwide" is in the name) your experience differs from that of others? I am happy for you that you had a positive experience, but other people have a more negative opinion and experience and there is no reason to exclude them (or to pretend their opinions are based on "gossip"). Polygnotus (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Unless you are about to make an argument that everyone everywhere has the same experience, then of course my experience differs from that of others. As it happens - in the case of Landmark - I am in agreement with the vast majority (over 3,000,000) who found it favorable, and, at the same time, I am aware that that was not the experience of every participant. In all the responses here on the talk page, I don't see any evidence that responders are calling for the elimination of contrasting opinions - only that they be put into context, and not given undue weight bolstered by less than authoritative supporting articles. And, by the way, I completely disagree with any who might accuse you of membership in ANY other species! They need to check their sources! Ndeavour (talk) 15:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we can agree that it would be unfair to frame the negative experiences of others as "gossip", it feels rather gaslighty to act as if they didn't experience what they did and as if their feelings are not real. I of course do not believe the 3 million number, but there is no company on Earth that has exclusively 100% satisfied customers if they have more than 100. And if you check online you'll find the astroturfed 5 star fake reviews (and people telling you they were pressured to write them), but also many 1 and 2 star reviews. Polygnotus (talk) 12:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

My, my, my, you are certainly an inventive individual. Who said anything about gossip? Or discounting the opinions or experiences of others? I certainly did not. As for whether or not you "believe" that Landmark has had over 3 million participants, do you have any evidence that the number is inaccurate? Again, no one is denying that some people had unfavorable experiences; nor is anyone saying that they shouldn't be included in a Wikipedia article. As to reviews, in this age of bots and AI I suggest they are less than reliable and don't belong in Wikipedia articles. Ndeavour (talk) 16:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Have you not noticed that the word gossip is a link to a statement the account you are using made earlier? Who said anything about gossip? The Ndeavour account did. I certainly did not. Your account did. And giving the experiences and opinions of those you disagree with the weight of gossip would certainly be a form of discounting the opinions or experiences of others. Polygnotus (talk) 17:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Why, so I did - I used the word. But what I said was that comments without valid sources (e.g., articles where the sole use of "cult" was in the title AND where the author refuted the use of the term) are no better than "someone said" and the equivalent of gossip. That doesn't discount otherr's experiences - only faulty references. . Ndeavour (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Nope, you wrote: I don't read where anyone is saying that the accusation against Landmark be removed - rather that it be acknowledged and given the weith of gossip. Put in perspective. Treating the accusation as gossip is discounting the experience of others. Polygnotus (talk) 19:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

We have another dispute over the use of cult language at Talk:International Churches of Christ, which means we have another group of editors who have already spent some time thinking about the meaning of cult. I therefore ping/dragoon/beg assistance here from a few of those editors: Valereee, Cordless Larry, North8000, Nemov, ProfGray, and Levivich.

Friends, this RFC question is phrased as a yes/no, but I suspect that a more general answer would be helpful (e.g., "we should keep all the stuff about the lawsuits" or "all that stuff about the lawsuits should be condensed by 50%" or whatever). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The question is not "is this a cult" (which would be WP:OR) or "should we call it a cult in wikivoice" (which we don't) but "should we allow members of the cult to hide the fact that Landmark was called a cult by pretty much everyone including the Parliamentary Commission on Cults in France (1995, 1999) and the Senate of Berlin (1997) and by many cult experts and commentators.". But COI editors don't get to decide what we should focus on. As Wikipedians we should make up our own minds about what needs to be improved most. If there is one area of the article that is most in need of improving it is the part about what Landmark actually is and does. The heart of the article. They offer a bunch of seminars and training courses; what are they and what do they teach? It may also be a good idea to explain where these ideas come from (e.g. Mind Dynamics, Scientology, Buddhism, various books like Think and Grow Rich) and how they fit in compared to the rest (e.g. the human potential movement and large-group awareness training). Polygnotus (talk) 22:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I sense a conflict between "The question is not "is this a cult" (which would be WP:OR)" and "should we allow members of the cult to...".

If your main concern is about editors with a COI holding a discussion about whether the article has struck the right balance, then you're in luck: I just pinged half a dozen editors who are (a) unlikely to have any connection to this subject and (b) already aware of how the word cult was used in the wake of the Satanic panic vs how it might be used today. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikivoice is very different from my personal opinion. You would never read Harley-Davidson, Inc. (H-D, or simply Harley) is a shockingly incompetent American manufacturer of the worst motorcycles ever built in a Wikipedia article, although that that opinion is factually correct. Thanks for the pings; I checked their userpages and I have asked ProfGray to take a look at Efrat (organization). Polygnotus (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I just made an edit to the 'Accusations of being a cult' section to more accurately express what the sources say, and it was instantly reverted without explanation even before I could finish correcting the citations. It seems clear to me that the article is being guarded against any edits that do not reflect a certain point of view.Coalcity58 (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

We can discuss this below; but we could make more progress if you would recognize/admit your own bias when you accuse others; your edit summarized/removed a LOT of the info about cult accusations, and you didn't use an edit summary either. ---Avatar317^(talk) 22:30, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The extent of the coverage of the "cult" issue is not undue, in light of the sources. I do think, however, that the placement is undue (at least in the version that is current as I write). The introductory section should be, well, introductory. It should give the reader a quick overview of the subject. Polygnotus writes, "Hiding all negative information in a section near the bottom of an article is discouraged." I agree. The opposite extreme, however, is to launch right into a discussion of the pros and cons of the accusation. It's too much detail for the intro section. I would rewrite the second graf along these lines:

Landmark does not use advertising, but instead pressures participants during courses to recruit relatives and friends as new customers. This and other features have caused some observers to characterize Landmark as a "new religious movement" (NRM) or as a cult, which the organization denies (see Accusations of being a cult).

My editing one of the other sentences in the graf doesn't mean that I think it should be that prominent. That sentence and the rest of that graf should be moved to the detailed subsection.

Incidentally, that "Accusations of being a cult" subsection summarizes the substance of the accusations (maybe "characterizations" would be more neutral) and summarizes the actions taken by Landmark in response, but it's light on summarizing the substance of Landmark's response. Surely Landmark has issued some statements along the lines of "Here's why we're not a cult"? If so, the subsection should be improved, not by deleting any of what's there, but by paying more attention to Landmark's side of the merits of the question. JamesMLane t c 00:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It would probably be wise to keep the view of sociologists and religious scholars, who describe it as an NRM, separate from those who describe it as a cult, which is basically every other independent commentator (like journalists), cult experts, groups/organizations and parts of various governments (France/Berlin/Belgium).

The reasons that it is an NRM are not the same as the reasons that it is a cult; its a different set of boxes to tick.

The method of recruiting perhaps qualifies it to be an MLM, or something similarly word-of-mouth based, but it is afaik not a defining feature of cults or NRMs. Polygnotus (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• No, I don't think this is undue, given the amount of coverage of this issue in reliable sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

LOL. It's not a cult. Cults take you away from people and try to make you cut people off. Landmark encourages you to reach out to other people who you see their lives not going as they want-it and see if the course helps them. Everybody's journey through the course is different. And they have other followup classes you can get enlightenment in new areas. I can see how that might look like a "cult" to an outsider but it's for two entirely different reasons. The other reason is after you take the class you'll move on to more challenging things in life. And friends who are content in not moving anywhere in life and just complain become boring energy killers. You thusly move on two different wave lengths. Ofcourse if they take the class and you can hold frank discussions with them on anything and they no longer get offended, that's when that relationship shifts again. 108.20.240.158 (talk) 19:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Wow. Anyway, Wikipedia talk pages are not a forum for sharing your personal opinions or first-hand observation. This discussion should focus on how to proportionately summarize reliable and independent sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Recent addition and reversion

@Coalcity58: Regarding this edit: [7]

I'm not opposed to the way you EXPANDED the first paragraph to quote the sources, though I'd rather have the statement be "faced persistent accusations" rather the "rumors".

But I do oppose the way you CONDENSED the following paragraphs.

Also, I think the sentence Several commentators unrelated to Landmark have stated that because it has no single central leader, is a secular (non-religious) organization, and it tries to unite (and re-unite) participants with their family and friends (rather than isolate them) that it does not meet many of the characteristics of a cult. (CSIndy_2019-07-24 | Spears_2017-03-30 | Hill_2003 | Toutant) helps to explain to readers WHY people say it isn't a cult.

Additionally, it would be better to refrain from editing this section while the above RfC is open. ---Avatar317^(talk) 22:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Please explain why you believe the edits I've made are not an improvement. They provide accurate information regarding what the sources have actually said. Why is there a problem with that? I suggest you look up the dictionary definition of rumors. Coalcity58 (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Deleting every opinion you disagree with is a bad idea, and clearly not WP:NPOV. And pretending the opinions and experiences of people you disagree with are "rumors" is weird. And since you have a conflict of interest you shouldn't be editing the article but using the {{edit coi}} template. Polygnotus (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Also note that editors with a conflict of interest should follow the Conflict of Interest guideline which explains how to use the {{edit coi}} template on the talkpage instead of editing the articles in question directly. Polygnotus (talk) 23:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)