Talk:Melvil Dewey

Why Publish False Rumors?

When Dewey opened his School of Library Economy at Columbia College to women, it was rumored that he asked for their bust sizes with their applications. Though the rumor turned out to be false he did require a photograph from each female applicant since "you cannot polish a pumpkin"

"The rumor turned out to be false" and yet it features in this article. To me this is Twitter-grade speculation and innuendo. A Wikipedia article should stick to facts. This section is not about false rumors swirling around Dewey. Instead, a false rumor is being used to buttress the claim that he was involved in sexual harassment. The requirement of the photograph and Dewey's purported "pumpkin" remark are irrelevant unless the following evidence is included: that Dewey did not require pictures of prospective male applicants, and that Dewey did not engage in commentary on prospective male employees. If Dewey requires pictures of men as well, then the pictures of women are irrelevant. If Dewey routinely made commentary on men as well as women, then the relevance of his purported commentary on women would have to be explained.

Neither of these is supplied by the Wikipedia article, nor the article supplied for evidence (https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2014/03/24/melvil-dewey-compulsive-innovator/). Furthermore, the article in reference states: "But there is no archival evidence suggesting that he ever acted inappropriately at Columbia where 90% of his students were women." In other words, rather than buttressing the claim that Dewey harassed women at Columbia, the article in reference denies such an inference. Instead, the article claims that "However, at some point during his sojourn at NYSL, to which he transferred his library school two years later, he appears to have evolved into a serial hugger and kisser." In other words, it appears the "rumors" did not emerge as he was setting up the Columbia school, but ex post facto speculations---like Twitter controversies---that emerged once Dewey was deemed a "serial hugger and kisser."

Not only is the section not about rumors that were true. They are not even about rumors that existed at the time of Dewey's activity at Columbia. And yet the article fails to acknowledge this complexity, while presenting a black and white portrait of Dewey as a racist, sexist, sexual harassing, anti-Semite. To me this is an unacceptable standard for Wikipedia. I expect this decline in quality will not only be found in numerous places where an enthusiasm for historical revisionism meets contemporary political fads, but will also be almost impossible to eradicate as the editorial class of Wikipedia permits bias and one-sidedness as official policy. 103.110.146.12 (talk) 09:57, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Neckbeard

Can we include the possibility that Melvil was the first neckbeard recorded in history? I remember reading that he used to tip his fedora at ladies and say "hello m'lady, wanna see my decimal collection". He would also rant about how not as smart guys always get all the girls. User:Jon Basedow 00:08, 01 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.68.157.184 (talk)

Finding Books at Your Local Library

I cut He published a book called "Finding Books at Your Local Library" because I can't find any record of such a volume. Also cut Melvil was also noted for being a great cook and created Boston Cream Pie. - likewise, could not confirm. If someone can confirm either one, please restore it. -- April —Preceding undated comment added 23:02, & :10, 7 September 2002‎

Reformer

Is calling him a "reformer" of English spelling NPOV? Maybe, but there might be the implication that English spelling was in need of reform, which when we observe that one of the main motives behind the reform was that spelling things the correct way was (allegedly; I don't accept this at all) "too hard" on schoolboys (I guess not as bright as their English counterparts) and thus had to be coddled by the development of an easier spelling. Some might question how seriously we should take the project of someone calling himself "Melvil Dui." --Daniel C. Boyer 14:56, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

So you're saying that he was'nt an English Spelling reformer just because you believe that spelling English is easy? And should'nt we call him what he called himself (Melvil Dui)?Cameron Nedland 17:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, we should call him what the English language calls him; by the same token, English calls everybody who fiddles with spelling a "spelling reformer" whether the reform is wise and practical or not. Septentrionalis 16:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Given that the primary source for information is Wayne Wiegand's book entitled: "Irrespressible Reformer," I think we can use the term here. The late 19th century was rife with reform and Dewey saw himself as needing to fix a lot of things that he considered to be broken, of which English language spelling was one. LaMona 23:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

Re the previous comment: I have no trouble with a person wanting to change the spelling of their name, or changing to an entirely different name. That is the prerogative of anybody. But, if he changed his name to "Melvil Dui", why don't we list him under that spelling rather than his original name? Seems somewhat disrespectful of his own wishes. Unless he never really changed it at all, but just toyed with the idea. Does anybody know to what extent he "changed" his name? JackofOz 00:57, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

   What we have now -- mention of his tentative use of "Dui", article-title with his accepted variant spelling of the given name, and mention of the spelling his parents tried to saddle him with -- is precisely correct. (I claim the right to speak with authority:)

My birth cert and B.A. degree say "Gary Riddell Zempel", but my M.S., and many, many drivers licenses and tax returns have said "G. o'Schenectady". When i won the love of the right good woman, and then bought into civil marriage, i reverted to compliance with a conventional notion (e.g., my parents') of what a civilized person's name should look like. "And i dare a man to say..." that doesn't make me part of the most qualified percentile of authorities on this matter: He changed his given name (or rather, its spelling), and his profession acknowledges the gesture -- which is unsurprising in light of our culture's general tolerance for nicknames and respellings of at least given names; he also took a shot at the surname, where the tolerance for actually watching it change is far lower -- i estimate it at around one respelling per nationality- and/or language-change -- but recognized the signs of "a hill not worth dying for". Our mention-only-in-passing is very well proportioned to his lived experience and his degree of persistence.

--Jerzy•t 10:15 ':27&:36, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Huh? EEng 17:01, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

You sound unhappy, and i could imaginatively speculate about why. On second thot, why not speculate, briefly: perhaps you imagine that everything on a talk page is expected to avoid irony, or perhaps you just are totally immune to amusing sidelights. Do i sound ironic, or amused, if i respond "Meh!"?
--Jerzy•t 11:05, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Relation to John Dewey

Relation to John Dewey? The edit "A distant relative of the American educator John Dewey" was inserted by an anon. contributor, all of whose other edits today were irresponsible or vandalism and have all been reverted. Can anyone vet this assertion? --Wetman 09:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it's safe to assume that was more vandalism :-) Arided (talk) 13:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

This last comment sets, perhaps, a new record for Wikipedia eventualism. EEng (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

   And here am i, another 4 years on, refreshing myself on what WP:eventualism is, and noticing where we now discuss it.
--Jerzy•t 12:39, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

American Library Association (ALA)

Something is amiss with the claim that "he helped found the American Library Association (ALA)" and that he "spoke at the tenth Annual ALA Conference held in Boston, Massachusetts in 1876." If the ALA had its tenth annual convention in 1876 it must have been founded no later than 1866 -- when Dewey was only fourteen. I doubt he founded the ALA at that age.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.232.225.218 (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2005‎

Anonymous contributors have been having a lot of fun with this article during the past year. I just went through and reverted them, checking facts in the book Irrepressible Reformer : a Biography of Melvil Dewey by Wayne A Wiegand. We'll have to keep an eye on this article. GUllman 23:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Strong statement

I'd be careful with using such a strong statement as anti-woman. According to the Biography Reference Bank (AN: 82040662) Dewey, upon being hired at Columbia University, in 1887, initiated the first library school in the country, which was also the first school of its kind (other than women's prepetory colleges) to admit women. Though a controversial figure in many ways, it is well documented that he fought to teach women library science. This article needs further research. Also, in regards to spelling his name Melvil Dui, his first name change stuck, but surname did not according to author Paul N. Frame's article "St. Dui," found in Colorado Libraries (Sept. 1975), because a bank would not honor his checks with his new last name (p. 6).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Oliviagatti (talk • contribs) 04:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the controversial statement of racism and sexism, while essentially true it would be better couched in some historical fact. Much of it comes up regarding his ownership and running of the private Lake Placid Club, which did not admit non-Christians or any racial minorities. Wiegand quotes from the club's brochure, so this is well-documented. (Wiegand, p. 264) Dewey's exclusion of Jews became something of a scandal, but it's not clear that the racial exclusion was considered unusual for the time. As for women, Dewey was almost single-handedly responsible for introducing women to librarianship and was heavily criticized for allowing them into his school. This was not in the interest of women's liberation -- Dewey recognized that women would be ideal librarians at a lower wage than men could command, and therefore were economically advantageous to libraries. (See: Dee Garrison, Apostles of Culture, p. 178)He was nothing if not practical.66.245.22.206 01:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

This weird warning has been in the article for far too long. I'm removing the claim and warning (it is possible but highly harmful, see Template:Fact) and if someone finds appropriately sourced information they can re-include it. -Reagle 15:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The move to Dui

This move shouldn't have been done without a consensus or further research. I will copy here the LoC's authority record for Melville Dewey. Note the 670 field near the end which gives the justification for the final form of the name in the authority file.

LC Control Number: n 79091588

HEADING: Dewey, Melvil, 1851-1931

000 00906cz a2200217n 450

001 31731

005 19911210132303.4

008 800428n| acannaab |a aaa

010 __ |a n 79091588

035 __ |a (DLC)n 79091588

040 __ |a DLC |c DLC |d DLC |d MnHi

100 10 |a Dewey, Melvil, |d 1851-1931

400 10 |a Dui, Melvil, |d 1851-1931

400 10 |a Dīwī, Milfil Luwīs Kūst, |d 1851-1931

400 10 |a Dyui, Melbil, |d 1851-1931

400 10 |a Tyui, Melbil, |d 1851-1931

400 10 |a Dewey, Melville Louis Kossuth, |d 1851-1931

670 __ |a His D.D.C. pullyupʻyo. Chonggyo punya, 1982: |b t.p. (Melbil Dyui) t.p. verso (Melvil Dewey)

670 __ |a Rider, F. Melvil Dewey, 1944: |b p. 3 (Melville Louis Kossuth Dewey (he successively dropped, first the "Louis", then the "Kossuth", then the "le" of "Melville"--and finally, for a while, tried to shorten the "Dewey" to "Dui"))

952 __ |a RETRO

953 __ |a xx00 |b bl25

...So, clearly, the Library of Congress considers him as not finally changing his last name to Dui, saying he only attempted to make the change for a while. I think Cameron Nedland should move it back and take care of the double redirect based on this. I would do it but I have a weak grasp of double redirect problems. By the way, I advocate using LC authority records to determine the authoritative form of names on wikipedia, where possible. Rlitwin 16:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you waiting for someone to second the motion to move the article back to Melvil Dewey? The Library of Congress research appear conclusive that this is the name by which he is commonly known. (See: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)) Whoever knows how to revert title changes without having double redirects, please do so quickly. GUllman 05:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think it has to be done by an admin. I will look for one to look at this. Rlitwin 13:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Moving an article back to an unedited redirect does not require an admin; so I did it. Septentrionalis 16:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Name change

it state he was born Melvil Louis Kossuth Dewey, later in the article it state that he considered changing his name from Melville Louis Kossuth Dewey. did he change it to Melville sometime after his birth? or should it say he was born as Melville? Thesleepless 06:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

From everything I've read or heard he was born Melville, and made the change of name as an adult. The article should remain under Melvil Dewey, but the error in his birth name needs changing- by someone with more authority than me, I should add. Saxophobia 00:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Worksection removed

Due to possible violation of copyright, see WP:Copyvio, I have removed the worksection of this article for now. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 08:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC) P.S. I apologize for all inconvenience I have caused here, see also here. If you would like to assist in improving this article, please let me know. I can use all the help I can get. Thank you.

Spelling reform and Lake Placid

In the article, Dewey's work on spelling reform is linked to the Lake Placid Club. Although he used his modified spelling there, there is no specific link to the Club. I would like to make a separate section for his spelling reform activities, which showed up in the DDC, and which he also used for personal correspondence. I will see what sources I can find that give the origins of his spelling reform work. Any objections? LaMona (talk) 18:36, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's a bit strange that spelling reform is hidden inside the LPC material; it should have its own section/subsection somewhere. At the same time, I think the examples of reformed spelling as used at LPC should be retained (whether in their current location or in a new spelling reform section) for two reasons: (1) they're really amusing; (2) they were part of the evidence falsifying Dewey's denial that he had helped formulate the Club's exclusionary policies, containing as they did oddities such as consumptiv, thru, and offensiv. As I recall Wiegand has this material. (Wiegand and Rider are both excellent sources in general.) EEng (talk) 01:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

There are some amazing examples of reformed spelling in the letters between Dewey and May Seymour - kind of a 'secret language of twins.' I can't even make out some of it. But a few examples from the schedules ('def and dum') and a few from LPC would show the 'public' versions.LaMona (talk) 14:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

May Seymour... was she one of the many spinster librarians Dewey was always hitting on? EEng (talk) 15:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

See the article Dewey Decimal Classification for more about May Seymour, who was the first editor of DDC after Dewey, and edited 8 editions (4-11) LaMona (talk) 17:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Some scraps from a paper of mine years ago -- someone might want to check the sources and work them into the article somehow:

• After LPC guests were served "cofi" at breakfast, one member complained to Dewey, "Your rotten way of spelling...certainly amuses me. Have a little sense and don’t make an ass out of yourself. (Wigand p327)
• The American Library Association, American Metric Bureau, Spelling Reform Association shared premises in Boston. (Wiegand, p.62)
• Dewey described a new stenographer as a "dainty litl flapper" [sic] and "betr looking than I expected" (Wiegand or Rider -- my notes are unclear -- pp.353–5ff).

I might mention that some of my favorite Dewer classes are 530.11 Absolute simultaneity and 791.4375 Pink Panther films. Some years ago class 645 House¬hold furnishings added a new subclass, 645.4 Armchairs. EEng (talk) 00:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ellen Swallow Richards

A paragraph has been copied from the article on Ellen Swallow Richards to the section on the Lake Placid Club. While the paragraph makes sense on the original page, it seems out of place here, since it is the only such activity listed in the section. I will remove after a while it unless others find it to be relevant. LaMona (talk) 21:51, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Might help if you told us what paragraph you're talking about. EEng (talk) 03:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

cntl-f? The paragraph is: Early in September, 1899, trustees of the Lake Placid Club, at Morningside, NY, thought it was the right time to bring together those most interested in home science, or household economics. They sent out many invitations for the Lake Placid Conference scheduled to take place Sept. 19-25, 1899. One of those invitations found its way to Mrs. Ellen Swallow Richards, a personal request by Mr. Melvil Dewey, one of the club's trustees, for her to attend. Standards of living was the subject of an evening lecture given by Mrs. Richards, who was elected chairman of the conference.[26]. The location in the ESR article is [1]. AFAIK, there is no significant connection between Dewey and Richards, and she is not mentioned in any of his biographies. I think this is over-reaching by the ESR biographer. Lake Placid Club had many visitors, speakers, performers over the years, and they do not belong in this article.LaMona (talk) 00:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't doubt the narrative is true -- outgoing communication from Dewey to Richards might be found only in Richards' papers and not Dewey's, so no surprise it's in Richards' but not Dewey's bios. Nonetheless the text is too much for this article. See how I cut it. EEng (talk) 01:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, that's about the maximum that should be said. Actually, if I run across any other examples of speakers/attendees I will add them. Richards is also the only person mentioned in Lake Placid Club, which I'm sure slants things a bit. The club was quite active in a variety of areas. LaMona (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

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“Controversies” section warranted?

Is there any sense that the Dewey page would benefit from a “Controversies” section to better organize and highlight the issues involving sexual harassment and anti-Semitism? There has been increased recent attention paid to these aspects of his biography, e.g. https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2018/06/01/melvil-dewey-bringing-harassment-out-of-the-history-books/ Bleubsdorf (talk) 23:38, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Following up on this -- today I relocated the material on the Lake Placid Club's exclusionary policies and Dewey's long history of sexual harassment into a new Controversies section, with some associated additions and trims and tweaks. This material felt buried in the Education and personal life section -- it's an important part of Dewey's legacy that has gained prominence in recent years. As always, please let me know what you think! Bleubsdorf (talk) 14:34, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

The material is definitely important on this page and this is well-cited. Mvblair (talk) 16:34, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Place of death

How sure are you that he died in Lake Placid, Florida, and not in Lake Placid, New York, where the clubhouses of his Lake Placid Club were located? --2001:A61:3479:3F01:A9C0:49D5:C2A3:402C (talk) 12:31, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2022

my request is to change the date of birth to the correct date and change the education to be the correct place of his education 104.207.197.124 (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

The marriages

Was he widowed or divorced at the time of his second marriage? Valetude (talk) 15:08, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Annie died in 1922.[2] Schazjmd (talk) 15:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Dewey's misdeeds

MELVIL DEWEY, HIS LIFE AND (MIS)DEEDS

Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:25, 6 July 2022 (UTC)