Talk:John Harvey Kellogg

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Legacy/Retrospective views

I should preface by saying I definitely lack the expertise to contribute here, however it seems a glaring omission that there is no section dedicated to his legacy and to later and modern day views on him. Regardless of ones specific opinion of him, he's clearly a significant historic figure. So why does the commentary suddenly end with his death? It would be fascinating to be able to read about which of his inventions and methods persisted and which were abandoned. Which were proven scientific and which were proven to be snake oil. And other lasting commentaries on his legacy (i.e. high rates of circumcision in the USA still today). 176.251.175.52 (talk) 16:53, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

And other lasting commentaries on his legacy (i.e. high rates of circumcision in the USA still today).

I encourage you to read Plain facts for old and young and think about what he's saying about circumcision. ReadsWikiOrgForFun (talk) 15:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Reference 4 is to an article about fight club

I was looking to see the evidence about corn flakes being an anaphrodesiac because I heard that it’s an unsubstantiated rumour. On this article, there seems to be a source for it but it makes no sense: the linked fight club reference is nothing to do with Kellogg, corn flakes or anaphrodesiacs Whereismytardis (talk) 06:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Reason for Will Kellogg's fame

    This article says John's brother Will Kellogg is best known for inventing corn flakes. It should say that he is best known for developing the Kellogg's Cereal Company. Rollo August (talk) 10:49, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Proof that he circumcised himself at 37? Can't find it in reference?

He circumcised himself at age 37. His methods for the "rehabilitation" of masturbation addicts included measures up to the point of cutting off part of the genitals, without anesthetic, on both sexes; he wrote men who did should be circumcised and women that did should have carbolic acid applied to their clitoral glans.[46]

It seems that Plain facts for old and young, published in 1879, was published originally in 1877 as Plain facts about sexual life.

Plain facts for old and young 1879 edition on Project Gutenberg.

Reference 46 gives an 1888 publishing date with Ayer Publishing as the for Plain facts for old and young. He was born in 1852.

1888 - 1852 = 36

Edit from April 3, 2019. Mobile device. Stayed up for almost four years.

Is this just made up? ReadsWikiOrgForFun (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I have removed it. Anyone who can provide a source to validate it can feel free to add it back.

After reading Plain facts for old and young, it seems like there probably should be some other changes too.

Another trap set is called an "Anatomical Museum." The anatomical part of the exhibition consists chiefly of models and figures calculated to excite the passions to the highest pitch. At stated intervals the proprietor, who is always a "doctor," and by preference a German, delivers lectures on the effects of masturbation, in which he resorts to every device to excite the fears and exaggerate the symptoms of his hearers, who are mostly young men and boys. Thus he prepares his victim, and when he once gets him within his clutches, he does not let him go until he has robbed him of his last dollar.

This text—delivers lectures on the effects of masturbation, in which he resorts to every device to excite the fears and exaggerate the symptoms of his hearers—in Plain facts for old and young puts the whole section on Masturbation Prevention into question. ReadsWikiOrgForFun (talk) 15:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I removed it, @ReadsWikiOrgForFun:. The entire section is problematic, appears to be WP: OR, repeated elsewhere, or completely inaccurate.KlayCax (talk) 19:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Opposed circumcision?

The citation for this seems to cite the Project Gutenberg Plain Facts for Old and Young (1881 edition), but the quote given in the citation doesn't seem to actually exist beyond the first sentence, is the quote fabricated or is the continuation actually derived from another source? ペゴボド同士 (Pegboard) (talk) 05:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Kellogg advocated circumcision. The source is named and provided. It's from his book. The source is cited three times there, with different page numbers. Take a look and see if that answers your question. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm specifically talking about the section that claims it to be a misconception. ペゴボド同士 (Pegboard) (talk) 13:22, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The Misconception section was misleading and contradicted sources that, earlier in the article, establish Kellogg was a proponent of a plain diet as an antimasturbatory measure, as well as using circumcision and application of acid to the clitoris as deterrents for masturbation in male and female children. I have removed that section as it was misleading and inaccurate. Yortman1 (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Misconceptions Section needs update or removal?

The current writing in this section, and choice of quotation from "Plain Facts for Old and Young", could lead readers to a misleading conclusion about Kellogg's stance on both Corn flakes and Circumcision.

First, on Corn Flakes.

The current section reads: "Several popular misconceptions falsely attribute various cultural practices, inventions, and historical events to Kellogg. These include false claims that Kellogg's corn flakes were invented or marketed to prevent masturbation. In reality, they were promoted to prevent indigestion."

However, From "Abnormal Psychology 2nd Edition" (Already cited earlier in the article):

"It is a little-known fact that J. H. Kellogg invented his breakfast cereals as part of his mission to discourage sexuality in young people; he hoped that feeding them bland food in the morning would decrease their excitability."

And a primary source, From ""Plain Facts for Old and Young" (pg 302 from the copy available through National Library of Medicine) In the section relating to cures for masturbation("Unchastity"):

"Discard all stimulating food. Under this head must be included spices, pepper, ginger, mustard, cinnamon, cloves, essences, all condiments, pickles, etc.,"

Second, on Circumcision:

The current section and quotation simply mention that he doubted whether it was "salutary for all men." While this is true, it could leave the reader with the false impression that Kellogg was against the practice, when in his writing he has promoted circumcision of "small boys" as an intentionally painful deterrent for masturbation.

From ""Plain Facts for Old and Young": Regarding cures for "Self-abuse" (pg 295):

"A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anæsthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed."

He also writes on pg. 298: "In Females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement, and preventing the recurrence of the practice..."

@Catfurball Perhaps, we could retain an improved section on misconceptions, but add a section for "Views on Masturbation"? As He has written quite extensively about the topic. Yortman1 (talk) 07:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

• @Yortman1: you have my permission to improve this section. Catfurball (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I second that emotion. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

    Also on pp.194–195 of Plain facts for old and young he writes:

    "In males, one of the most general physical causes of sexual excitement is constipation. The vesicula seminalis, in which the seminal fluid is stored, is situated, as will be remembered, at the base of the bladder. It thus has the bladder in front and the rectum behind. In constipation, the rectum becomes distended with feces -- effete matter which should have been promptly evacuated, instead of being allowed to accumulate. This hardened mass presses upon the parts most intimately concerned in the sexual act, causing excessive local excitement. When this condition is chronic, as in habitual constipation, the unnatural excitement often leads to most serious results. One of these is the production of a horrible disease, satyriasis, the nature of which has been previously indicated.

    Constipation in females has the same tendency, though the dangers are not quite so great. The irritation is sufficient, however, to lead to excitement of the passions."

    His work to develop diets to avert constipation should be viewed in light of this. The "Misconceptions" section sounds in its tone like some kind of apologist propaganda, and needs rewriting. — OttoMäkelä (talk) 22:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Problem Source

I just removed the claim that Kellogg opposed circumcision. The quoted wording does not appear in the source. The citation contains a screenshot again including the wording that does not appear in the source. I thus suspect it was deliberately fabricated. I have screenshots and this can be verified by searching the source which is in the public domain. Robert Brockway (talk) 08:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Please disregard. I've found a second source and there seems to be something wrong with the Project Gutenberg copy. An entire paragraph is missing. Robert Brockway (talk) 09:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Disputed "misconceptions" section

User:Captainthomas insists on removing the text, which states that the belief that Kellogg was responsible for popularizing male circumcision is a misconception. This journal source states that it was Lewis Sayre, not Kellogg, who popularized male circumcision in the US. Kellogg, in "Plain Facts" questions whether routine circumcision did more harm than good, though as noted in the "Misconceptions Section needs update or removal?" section above he did recommend it for "Self-abuse." OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Why can't it be that both Sayre and Kellogg popularized it? As I understand it, so did Remondino. While Kellogg is a popular person, he certainly does not deserve all of the credit. However, the current state of this Wikipedia article seems to suggest that Kellogg was against it when I do not see any evidence of such a thing beyond the reference to meatal stenosis. Maybe this needs to be clarified that Kellogg was not a proponent of *routine infant circumcision* but promoted it for older individuals who had a habit of masturbation? Johnadkison (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

the section on misconceptions and the section of opinions on health

As others have stated before me, the section on popular misconceptions has once again been changed to state that Kellogg opposed circumcision, 'quoting' from the text that it's salutary benefit is very doubtful.However, the cited text itself from Gutenberg reads completely differently. There is no:

• ...It is doubtful, however, whether as much harm as good does not result from circumcision, since it has been shown by extensive observation among the Jews that very great contraction of the meatus, or external orifice of the urethra, is exceedingly common among them, being undoubtedly the result of the prolonged irritation and subsequent cicatricial contraction resulting from circumcision in infant"

This is found nowhere in the cited Gutenberg source "Plain Facts for the Old and Young", and looking on Reddit, might be traced to a single bad actor who seemed to view the entire work by Kellogg as satirical, who's comments were downvoted and who's account is now deleted.

Reading through Kellogg's own text, it seems very clear that this Wikipedia article greatly glosses over several of his opinions on sexual health in boys and girls... Where are the sections relating to his opinions on 'self-abuse', or his confessed stories on treating "sinful indulgence" in young women sent to his sanitarium?

I think that this article might do well to receive just about a full edit and then be locked down. There are multiple Talks above this one relating to this article being edited to fix this 'misconception' section, and yet here it is again. It's also very clear that the "Kellogg's views on Health" section seems to omit his opinions on sexual health and take an almost favourable stance on the man.

There's likely a single or small group of users continually editing the article with false quotes and malicious citations. . Cvewatson (talk) 00:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, someone above has said that there is a whole missing paragraph from the text on Gutenberg — okay, where is a source corroborating this? If Gutenberg is incorrect and missing information, then why is it still cited?

There is a link to Google Books but there doesn't seem to be readable text there at all. Cvewatson (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I see now that someone linked an archive.org source in an above topic. Perhaps I was slightly too hasty: but it's very confusing. I'd recommend the citation [37] just be removed in it's entirety if Gutenberg is incorrect and missing a paragraph, I think it's caused me and multiple other users a headache when Gutenberg mismatches the quoted text from archive.org, and yet is still a citation within the Misconceptions section.

I still say there should be more in this article relating to his opinions on Female Genital Mutilation and Chastity, however, and I do think some of the language in the "Views on Health" section is strange. Cvewatson (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

My attention was brought to this page by another where we seem to contradict ourselves (see Talk:Castration anxiety) and concur that the misconceptions section needs work. It currently appears to whitewash Kellogg's views. Without a doubt he advocated circumcision in some cases to cure boys of self abuse, and advocated doing so without anaesthetic. His earlier works also speak well of circumcision without the later caveat found in his 1888 work.

Laderman & Leon repeat what we say on this page is a misconception, in a suitably reliable source. They cite Gollaher (2000) who provides some poorly referenced but genuine primary sourced material saying, inter alia, "A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis" (Kellogg, 1884:114). So Kellogg did advocate circumcision, despite the quote found on our Kellogg page. But the Kellogg page adds a caveat from Kellogg. This caveat is in the 1888 edition but not in the 1879, 1881 or 1884 editions. In that later edition he says

It is doubtful, however, whether as much harm as good does not result from circumcision, since it has been shown by extensive observation among the Jews that very great contraction of the meatus, or external orifice of the urethra, is exceedingly common among them, being undoubtedly the result of the prolonged irritation and subsequent cicatricial contraction resulting from circumcision in infancy.

(Kellogg, 1888:107). I have just added a verification failed to the page, which links to, and cites the 1881 edition but quotes the 1888 edition.

So Kellogg certainly appeared to be pro circumcision as a masturbation cure, but later came to oppose the general circumcision of the whole population. We need something more nuanced here.

• Gollaher, David L. (2000). Circumcision: A History of the World’s Most Controversial Surgery. New York: Basic Books
• Kellogg, John Harvey (1884) Plain Facts for Old and Young Burlington, Iowa: Segner & Condit. Available [1] Accessed 12 July 2024
• Kellogg, John Harvey (1888) Plain Facts for Old and Young Burlington, Iowa: Segner & Condit. Available [2] Accessed 12 July 2024
• Laderman, Gary; León, Luis (2014). Religion and American Cultures: Tradition, Diversity, and Popular Expression, 2nd Edition. ABC-CLIO.

Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2024 (UTC)