Talk:Saint Valentine's Day Massacre

Untitled

How was it that the killers thought they saw bugs go into the garage when he wasn't even there and how did Al Capone kill Bugs Moran when he was in Florida and how come the killers were never found although some people have thoughts of who they are?

Apparently the hit team saw an optomitrist which they mistook for Moran. As Moran was supposed to have been present at the meeting they naturaly assumed that it was him arriving. Capone had been trying to kill Moran, succeeding in killing former North Side leaders Dion O'Banion, Hymie Weiss, and Vincent Drucci, throughout the five year gang war. While Jack McGurn planned and executed the hit it was a simple matter for Capone, like many Mafiosi before a planned murder, to conveniently leave for Florida and "assume everything went accoring to plan" as it were. Hitman are rarely found and, given the prominant gunmen of the period, it's a good guess as to who would have been used in such an important assignment. 152.163.100.6 22:49, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction

The article claims in one place that Gusenberg said "I'm not talking" when questioned by the police; further down, it says that his only words were "Nobody shot me." Obviously, both can't be correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.8.157 (talk) 18:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Embellishment?

The account of Frank "Tight Lips" Gusenberg saying "nobody" when asked who shot him, sounds an awful lot like writer's embellishement. These kinds of stories often crop up around famous outlaws and events like this from Billy the Kid to Al Capone. If this is true, there needs to be a reference.

• It's the standard report on this event, that the lone short-lived survivor wouldn't talk. Wahkeenah 17:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It's true. The gang members wouldn't rat each other out to the police, as demonstrated by Johnny Torrio when he was wounded by a rival gang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.71.68 (talk) 23:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Members of Bugs Moran's gang

Dr Schwimmer was not a gang member. He was a citizen who found it exciting to hang out with gang members. He picked a bad day to indulge in this passtime. His killing was unintentional, just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Murder weapon

The article states:

Allmost all seven men were then shot and killed with a Thompson submachine gun.

However all of our own refs say two Tommy guns were used, and at least two say a sawn-off shotgun and a .45 pistol was also involved. Can we find something definitive on this, like an FBI report? -- Securiger 07:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. From what I've read and seen, the weapons were:

• Two Thompson submachine guns; one with a 50-round drum magazine, the other with a 20-round box (all rounds were fired-70 .45 cal. casings were found)
• Two shotguns of which at least one was fired (2 shotgun shells were found)
• [possibly others. These were what was fired, though.]

I have fixed the article and added my source at the bottom. Any comments? (Nick31091 06:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC))

Needs improvemment

Some of this article is not written in the tone expected of an encylopedia. It uses words like 'cops' instead of police, for example. Near the end it segues into Pro Wrestling and Itchy & Scratchy. 192.251.125.85 04:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Scarface no fictional depiction?

Why is there no mention of Scarface in the Fictional Depiction section, where it is prominently shown? Nazroon 04:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Four or Five?

In the first paragraph it mentions that five memebers of Al Capone's gang were the killers, however, later it only mentions four in the fourth paragraph of "The Shootings". Will someone please find the right amount of killers? -Thank you

From what I know, four shooters and 2 lookouts. The shooters were Fred Goetz, Fred Burke, Gus Winkler, and Robert Carey, with the lookouts being Byron Bolton and Ray Nugent. Burke and Goetz wore the police uniforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.71.68 (talk) 23:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Evidence

How did the Berrien County Sheriff's Department in Michigan get all the evidence? --Daysleeper47 16:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The Berrien County Sheriff's Dept didn't get ALL the evidence. They recovered the Thompson SMG's from the Stevensville, Michigan home of Fred Burke. Burke killed a St Joseph Michigan Police officer and the Sheriff's Dept raided his home and found the Thompsons and other guns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.150.150.123 (talk) 05:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Wonder Years

Hi!

It should also be noted that one episode of "The Wonder Years" is named after this incident, guest starring Fred Savage's brother Ben as some Cupido-like younger pupil.

Best regards

Elchskopf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elchskopf (talk • contribs) 15:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

O'Banion or Moran?

In the first section of this article, Dion O'Banion is referenced as being alive at the time of the massacre, yet the note heading off this article says he was already dead. As I am not well enough acquainted with the facts concerning this, could someone who is straighten this discrepancy out? Hugo Zorilla (talk) 05:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Dion was definitely dead when this happened. 65.175.213.223 (talk) 20:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancies

At the end of the article, it is claimed that the only thing left alive was a dog, but it also says that Frank Gusenberg was alive, someone should probably fix that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.22.164 (talk) 14:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Also says in one place that Guenberg was shot 22 times, another place he was shot 14 times. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 22:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

At the start of the article suggests that there were 7 victims of the massacre, but further down, under the Heading of Victims, it identifies the names of 9 victims? How can this be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.138.63 (talk) 06:48, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

couple of comments...

Just finished an interesting book that touches on this subject: "Get Capone" by Jonathan Eig (Simon & Schuster 2010).

p.191 Eig mentions that one of the last things that Frank Gusenberg said was, "Cops did it."

This fits well with another angle proposed by Eig regarding who was behind the massacre, and for what reason (see pg 250 - 253). William Davern Jr (first cousin and very close friend of William "Three-Fingered Jack" White) had been shot in a bar fight by one of the Gusenberg brothers and some other Moran men. William survived in the hospital for weeks and according to Eig might have told his first cousin White (who was connected with Capone's outfit) about who was responsible. Davern's father was a sergeant in the Chicago police department. The idea is that White (possibly with help from his uncle the chicago police sergeant), in order to avenge the death of his first cousin and close childhood friend, planned the massacre. A witness interviewed by the chicago police said that the driver of the "police squad car" used by the killers was missing a finger. White was later an FBI informant, which might explain why evidence presented to the FBI that White was behind the massacre was overlooked!

El lapiz japones (talk) 16:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Eig's theory is really wild speculation based on a letter he found in the FBI's files on the Massacre (the letter had been long discounted by the FBI). White was actually in jail at the time that his cousin was shot and at the time of the Massacre and reports are that ballistics on bullets found at the Massacre crime scene match bullets used in the Frankie Yale murder, to which White has no connection. The gun that fired those bullets was found in the possession of Fred "Killer" Burke. Also, Davern was said to be connected to the North Side gang and his suspected murder was Jack McGurn. Therefore, it seems unreasonable that even if White was able to get out of jail and plan the attach that he'd target the North Side gang.167.127.218.62 (talk) 22:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

User:gary appenzeller 28 April 2015

The Eig theory should be added to the article as an extra section with all of the problems it has. Another problem it has is the weapons that Eig says were found at a farm in Michigan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.203.80.125 (talk) 13:49, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Unreferenced template

90% of this article is totally unreferenced and it is even longer than the Al Capone article. If you have the books, add the refs. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 17:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I just added a reference from the Chicago Tribune that covers much of the material. Much more references needed, I'll try and clean this article up. Cheers — MusikAnimal ^talk 01:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Class Project Page

This page has been selected by one of my students as a class project. Please be polite and constructive when editing or giving advice and be aware that the students involved in this project are learning Wikipedia along with learning research and writing skills. please assume good faith to their contributions before making changes. If you have any questions, please contact me. --MrSilva (talk) 18:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

MrSilva, I just read about your class project. I think this is a great idea but not knowing those involved I can't tell any progress that might have been made. A majority of this article is either not referenced or poorly referenced. Contributions that are relevant with a source or reference has a better chance of being reverted so if you would suggest that referenced material be used it would be most helpful. Otr500 (talk) 02:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

References

Find-a-Grave has been used as a references. While all the arguments have been floated around information on the the site has still been considered not appropriate for reference by the Wikipedia community. The reasoning, in favor for use, was mostly because the site provided some information that may not be found elsewhere. I find it hard to believe that a subject as famous, or infamous, would have a lack of referenced information necessitating such use. I would hope anyone editing this article would did a little deeper to find references. Otr500 (talk) 03:10, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

"Executed"? No.

This in the "History" section. The victims were not "executed". They were murdered. If you must, murdered "execution-style". But not executed. --72.70.85.27 (talk) 11:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

39,220 bytes

...and only thirteen fucking references?! "You gotta be kiddin' me!" as they probably woulda said. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 18:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Restructuring History section

I don't have extensive knowledge of the subject, but the article needed revision and I did what I could. The History section includes two accounts of the events of the day, one at the beginning and one at the end. The middle part discusses the planning and motivations behind the event. Either the article should describe the background and then describe the event, in chronological order, or it should narratively discuss the massacre and then explain it. I didn't make an attempt to reconcile the two accounts of February 14.

It was necessary to add a prose description of the victims early in the section because several of them are mentioned in the follow-up text. This does duplicate the list of victims. Roches (talk) 06:08, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Historical Other Shootings on this day

a compilation may be in order - as possibly a meme is brewing - not aware of others

Northern Illinois University - DeKalb, Illinois .. 5 killed plus gunman himself - 2008

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/ct-met-niu-shootings-10th-anniversary-20180212-story.html

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School - Parkland, Florida .. 17 killed plus many wounded - gunman caught - 2018

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/us/parkland-school-shooting.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

Greg0658 (talk) 15:16, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

What are you proposing? Who cares if other shootings happen the same day? There is no relation at all. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Bugs Moran?

Article states that Moran was running late, that the hit squad mistook another man for Moran and then started shooting. So when did Moran finally arrive? Was there a second wave of gunfire? Seems like a critical step is missing in this account. 74.71.77.40 (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Fictional depictions?

Was there a section on Fictional Depictions at some point? Not seeing one in the current article. 74.71.77.40 (talk) 18:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

this edit removed that section - I think it should be restored. Wizzy…☎ 14:40, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, so I restored a slightly edited version of it. Zeno Cosini~enwiki (talk) 22:50, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

This is incorrect. Actually Capone setup a raid to catch the cops cops who destroyed his marriage and buisness at the beginning of prohibition. The gang members walked in behind the cops during the raid shot them dressed them in gangsters clothing and wore the cop uniform's out.

Your version completely contradicts the History channels version. 2600:1702:2990:5610:94CC:DF2C:B8AA:81D2 (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)