Talk:Shelob

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Review: July 16, 2021. (Reviewed version).

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Untitled

I always thought that Lazylob and Atterkob where just insults that Bilbo used in his taunts of the spiders, not references to or names of actual spiders. Does anyone know if the references/names were intentional? Jketola 18:32 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

I'm with you on this, I took it to be just a generic insult, and don't believe any spiders were ever individually named in The Hobbit. Besides, it was "Attercop" anyway, not "Atterkob". ;) -- John Owens 18:42 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

They're insults for spiders, not names Bilbo gave them. Come from old words for spider. — Jor (Talk) 10:49, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I was going to be bold and just delete that paragraph, but then I realized I don't quite recall whether it was ever stated more generally that her offspring migrated to Mirkwood, which would warrant keeping that paragraph around in an altered form. Anyone have a reference handy? -- John Owens

It's mentioned in narrative, I looked it up some time ago. Something along the lines of that Sauron introduced her offspring to Mirkwood when he occupied Dol Guldur. — Jor (Talk) 10:49, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

TTT, chapter "Shelob's lair": (After a note on how she is like the spiders of Beleriand) Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. — Jor (Talk) 11:09, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The story does in fact not suggest that she was killed. It rather points out that her final fate was unknown " Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair, nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountains of Shadow, this tale does not tell." CharonX 02:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of questions: - Why is Bilbo's song from The Hobbit on this page? Aside from the spider connection, I can't see how it is relevant - surely there are directly related quotes that would work better? - Also, where is she referred to as "Spider of Darkness"? Could someone please provide a reference from a Tolkien text to support that inclusion? Faerie Queene (talk) 03:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Faerie Queene, I can't find any reference to "Spider of Darkness".

I've added a 'citation needed' note.--Bflood (talk) 18:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the page says that Jackson's depiction of a rear stinger "is in line with the novel". How so? I can find no reference to it. The narrative says that when Sam is under her he's "out of reach of her sting and of her claws", which does not really support the anatomy portrayed in the movie. Tolkien describes "her beak drabbling a spittle of venom". Beak, not stinger. And no mention at all of her having a gaping mouth.Bflood (talk) 23:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spiders don't have stingers you silly geese! 129.139.1.68 (talk) 16:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've edited this graph. Bflood

^ They do have mouths though, just an FYI. And they are "gaping", in the sense that they can't close as there's no jaw. It's just a big triangular opening on the underside of the carapace that leads to their stomach. In species that have more powerful chelicerae they even tend to be lined with hundreds of teeth, which are used in conjunction with the chelicerae themselves and of course their venom to mulch up the tougher parts of their prey, such as chitin or bone. It's pretty easy to see on bigger spiders like tarantulas. Not that I recommend looking. In case my description didn't quite convey this, it's fairly unpleasant looking. Like, if the devil had a vagina, that's what it would look like. It's that fucking ugly.--77.103.237.230 (talk) 07:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shelob, also known as Krags

There is no reference for this change. The only reference mentioned goes something like this "I remember it was in one of the letters somewhere. There were a lot of letters I don't remember which one. Oh and I knew Chris and he said so." This is not a WP:RS therefore this change should remain out of the article until an actual reference is found. --VViking_TalkEdits 14:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. If it is in a letter, it's not one of those published in his collected Letters. If there is a source for this, we need it to be WP:CITEd in full. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also support exclusion unless a reliable source is provided. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sting or bite?

I question the statement "Unlike ordinary spiders, she uses a sting [Real spiders instead have chelicerae with fangs to inject venom] to inject her venom and paralyse her victims". Unlike the movies (which show Shelob with a large stinger), the books don't make any mention of that. Tolkien _does_ say that she stung Frodo, but in older literature it was common to describe venomous bites as "stings" (including e.g. snake bites). Tolkien _also_ mentions biting in the same sentence that he mentions stinging: she gathered herself for another spring - this time to crush and sting to death: no little bite of poison to still the struggling of her meat; this time to slay and then to rend" (The Two Towers, p 712). Earlier in the same paragraph she is described as "her beak dribbling a spittle of venom", which again suggests she uses a venomous bite. Iapetus (talk) 14:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Tolkien's language is loose, but you must be right about the intention. I've tweaked the text accordingly. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the word "attractive" seems subjective

In her description for the shadow of war adaptation shelob is described as taking the form of an "attractive woman." Unless I'm wrong, this reads as an opinion, and the word attractive should be removed or replaced. HootyTheOwlTube (talk) 02:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ariadne?

Under "Sexual Monster", the myth of "Ariadne and the spider" is alluded to; I can find no evidence of such a myth. Are we sure this is not supposed to be Arachne? I read the source cited, and I have two issues with it: the sentence referenced in this article is actually phrased "As Robert Gidding and Elizabeth Holland have already pointed out in their book, J.J.R. Tolkien: The Shores of Middle-Earth, Tolkien's characterisation of Shelob derives from several mythological sources, Sigurd's killing of the dragon, Fafnir, Theseus and the Minotaur, the spider, Ariadne, and Milton's Sin in Paradise Lost." (emphasis mine). First of all, the phrasing makes it unclear whether "the spider" and "Ariadne" are related, and the source cited in this Wikipedia article is actually citing another secondary source, which I have no access to. Is there someone with access to Gidding and Holland's J.J.R. Tolkien: The Shores of Middle-Earth (1981, p. 118) that can verify this reference and perhaps change the citation to a more direct one if necessary?

(My apologies if this is not how a Talk page is supposed to be used, I am not a regular Wikipedia editor.) Bibacchant (talk) 10:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. Of course it's Arachne, who was turned into a spider in the myth. I could swear someone noted this error (ah, I found it, another article with a copy of the relevant paragraph, so the error was in duplex) and I fixed it a while back~~, maybe someone has reintroduced it in confusion~~. Anyway, it's fixed now, and since the cited source is reliable and the mythological link is certainly correct, we can stop worrying about it now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:24, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]