Talk:Irish diaspora

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Bermuda

The paragraph about Bermuda is very big in comparison to the paragraph concerning the rest of the European diaspora. --Rougieux 13:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Irish Diaspora in Early Modern Europe 15th-17th Century

I feel that some reference should also be made to the huge numbers of Irish people who settled in France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Britain during this era. If nobody else wants to touch on this, I will gladly do so. And indeed for the eras prior to this too. Fergananim

Citation of Biography

Can we get some citations for the heritage of certain individuals in the Biography section, particularly Paul McCartney and John Lennon? I'm no expert, but these claims really surprised me.

The truth is that nearly everyone in Liverpool has some historical connection with Ireland - which isn't very surprising when you consider how close that city is to Dublin by sea, that the two places were part of the same kingdom for centuries and that there was massive emmigration from Ireland during this time (Population of Ireland droped by 80% from 1840 to independence, for example). The Irish connections of the beatles is very well documented.

On Paul McCartney - [1]

Paul McCartney claims Irish heritage on both sides of his family. Some sources claim that Paul's paternal grandfather, James McCartney II, a journeyman plumber and carpenter, was actually born in Ireland; others posit that it was actually Paul's great-grandfather, James McCartney, who was the first of the family to leave Ireland. Both of these men were Roman Catholics, but Paul's father, Jim McCartney, was raised in the Church of England and grew up without having any specific knowledge of his Irish background other than knowing that the McCartney’s were Irish in origin.

Although his father had some Irish roots, it was Paul's mother, the former Mary Patricia Mohin, who instilled a sense of pride in Paul about his Irish heritage. Mary Patricia's father, Owen Mohin, was born in 1880 in Tullynamalrow, County Monaghan; originally born Mohan, their village had so many Mohan’s that as a schoolboy his teacher decided to list the Mohan’s on one side of the classroom by their real name, and those on the other side by 'Mohin' in order to differentiate between the numerous Mohan clan which populated his schoolhouse.

On John Lennon - [2]

Being estranged from his father since the age of 5, John Lennon never knew either of his Irish grandparents or anything of his Irish roots, as his mother’s family raised him, the Stanley’s, who were of Welsh extraction. In later years he became increasingly interested in his Irish heritage.

However, Dublin was the birthplace in 1858 of John's grandfather, James Lennon who, like many men of his time, immigrated to Liverpool to seek better prospects of employment. Their James married Irishwoman Mary Anne 'Polly' Maguire in 1915, and the two started their family. Among their children was John's father, Alfred.

On George Harrison - [3]

50 years before George began a career; his Irish forebears still lived a humble peasant life on a tiny farm at Corah, County Wexford. George’s grandfather John French, born in 1870 immigrated over to Liverpool where he signed on with the city’s police force. He was sacked along with the entire police force during a bitter union dispute which became known as The Liverpool Lock-out in which policemen were banned from entering their own stations.

On Ringo - [4]

However, in the first ever work exclusively done on Ringo, Alan Clayson's 1992 biography Ringo Starr (Straight Man or Joker?) the author describes Ringo as the only Beatle not having any Irish blood'.

Seabhcán 10:49, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Useful Quotes to be added

Robinson, for example, stated in her inaugural address that she would “be proud to represent [the] vast community of Irish emigrants”. Current Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has commented, “We view the Irish diaspora as a rich source of international influence and goodwill towards Ireland.” The Irish Constitution itself states that “the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage”.[5]

The Ireland Funds
The Ireland Funds is a charitable umbrella organisation established in 1976 by a group of supporters of Ireland including businessman Dr Tony O’Reilly. It brings together funds operating in 11 countries according to local charitable laws. The Funds raise money from the Irish diaspora and direct it to programs in Ireland which benefit arts, culture, peace and reconciliation, education and development. The Funds hold local fundraising events and an annual worldwide conference, and they have raised over US$200 million through membership fees, bequests and donations.

Lethlean, Diaspora: the new philanthropy? : pp. 6-7; http://www.irlfunds.org [cited 22 June 2004]; Shailagh Murray, Emerald Isle: Irish diaspora learns that charity begins at the ancestral home. The Wall Street Journal Europe, 8 December 1998, p. 1.

More Links

Aisling Return to Ireland Project [6]

Government report [7]

Quantification of Diaspora

The article states: "The diaspora contains over 80 million people." Does this mean that 80 million people left Ireland, or that 80 million people can trace at least one ancestor to the Irish Diaspora, or does it mean something different? --Dumbo1 13:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

80m claim to be of Irish descent. There are about 4 million people living abroad who would qualify for Irish citizenship - meaning they have at least 1 grandparent born in Ireland. The rest are more distantly connected. Seabhcán 13:59, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Map

It would be nice to have a map showing Irish migration, perhaps showing relative migration volumes by different sized arrows? Any volunteers? Seabhcán 08:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of the map - there is currently a map of the distribution of "Irish nationals and eligible descendants" in different countries in the top left of the article. However, it seems contradictory to the figures given in the article itself. For example, it says that both Brazil and Mexico have between 10,000 and 100,000 such residents, yet the article gives the figure for Mexico at 1 to 1.2 million, and Brazil isn't even mentioned in the article (and as far as I know, had a very small Irish-descended population, so its having not been mentioned makes sense, but its presence on the map doesn't). 92.251.134.24 (talk) 17:21, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The UK

There are close to one million Irish born immigrants in the United Kingdom This is very confusing considering the fact that people born in Northern Ireland are already Irish by default. Shouldn't it say Britain or something?

Fixed. Seabhcán 12:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

people born in the north are born in the UK. There not part of ireland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.31.154 (talk) 11:42, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge?

I disagree fundamentally with the concept of merging the concept of the diaspora with the concept of the Irish people, but it should conceptually be strongly linked and cross referenced in the context of concept. --Hugorudd 16:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

In addition, a statement that someone from Northern Ireland is 'already' Irish 'by default' is a contested political issue, and not at all accepted.--Hugorudd 16:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The difference that you are talking about is the concept of nationality - NOT of ethnicity. As a unionist from Northern Ireland, I can tell you that I am most definately Irish, though I am not an Irish citizen (ie: a citizen of the Republic of Ireland). Everyone in Northern Ireland is, by default, British by nationality - whether they reject it or not. As an analogy, consider the terms English, Scottish and Welsh: they are all British collectively and by national identity. The same goes for the Irish people of Northern Ireland. --Mal 01:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It is not proposed to merge the concepts, merely the articles. If you take a look att the Irish people article, you will see that there is much of the same material there in this article. The decision to merge has not been taken, it is a suggestion for discussion. Seabhcán 16:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't much like the idea of merging the two articles, simply because they're conceptually different. People who are Irish from Ireland may well contest Irish North Americans' ability to count as "Irish people", but "Irish diaspora" is non-contentious. (And if you've ever been in an Irish bar in the US, you'll see at once that they are both very different from pubs in Ireland, and very keen to evoke Irish roots and identity.) The fact that the Irish people article has so much material on the diaspora simply makes me think that that material ought to be over here.

By the way, Hugorudd, I don't agree that people from Northern Ireland being Irish has to be a political issue. 'Ireland' is often used as a geographic expression as much as anything else, like Scandinavia or Hispaniola. (And in any case people from Northern Ireland are all entitled to Republic of Ireland passports, vote in Southern elections, and even rise to become president of the Republic, for what that's worth. Northern Irish Unionists are Irish by several definitions even if they may reject Irishness as a political or ethnic designation.) QuartierLatin 1968 23:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

On the question of whether northern Irelanders are Irish: Ian Paisley (the most Unionist man in Ulster) has said : "I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman."Seabhcán 10:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely Seabhcán. I'm not particularly a fan of Mr Paisley, but I agree with him on this particular statement, as do many other unionists. Some unionists however, and they are basically known as loyalists these days (being extremists), reject any notion of 'Irishness' in favour of solely 'Britishness' - irrespective of their ancestry. Most Irish unionists are descended from Irish people from hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. I would say that a substantial minority also have Scottish ancestry ('Scotti' means 'Irish' anyway!), and a very small minority also have English roots. Also, unionists who are also Roman Catholic are just as Irish by all acounts. --Mal 08:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I also oppose the merger. Looking at the Irish people article I think it has some good stuff, but the list of "Irish" people needs to be cleaned up. Leave this article and take the good stuff from Irish People.Finbar 19:23, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

• Disagree with the proposed merger for the reasons outlined above. Being Irish is perhaps a complex notion for many, but the Irish diaspora does not include Irish people who are living in Ireland with all the influences, the way of life, that pertains to living in Ireland - these people are quite different from Irish people who have left - particularly nth-generation Irish diaspora. --Mal 08:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Protected

Work out your differences here. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 22:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the protection.

I can't figure out exactly what you are doing? Can you please explain? Some of your edits border on violating WP:NPOV and I feel you're getting a bit excessive with some of your descriptions. Deskana (talk) 22:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion continues

I am slightly baffled by this response. I very mildly adjusted the emphasis of the Britain section, which I thought slightly understated the (very high) degree to which the Irish are integrated in mainland Britain, and appeared to overstate Irish " separateness" on mainland Britain, which as most people will tell you is increasingly of the past ( I'm half-Irish and half-English myself). [Anon]

For the record, all my grandparents were Irish, and I was born and raised in England.

I assume you are 86.137.94.20 ? I was starting to think you were a vandal because you weren't responding to any messages I was sending you or looking at my comments in edit summaries. I was also confused as to why you were making SO many edits. I recommend pressing "Show preview". The changes themselves showed little sign on vandalism. And perhaps use of too many adjectives.

If you think your changes through before you hit Save, it makes it easier for everyone else. I've been having trouble getting this saved because of Edit Conflicts. I also advise you use edit summaries.

Use of the word ultra in "ultra right-wing" seemed a bit like a POV statement to me. Deskana (talk) 23:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the constant re-editing, as people haven't objected to that before I'd never assumed that would considered a problem or possible vandalism . On the "ultra" point I think it's very fair, and probably quite important to say that the part of the UK population that was still strongly anti-Irish 10 or 15 years ago is also ultra-conservative, and that's the last edit I want to put in.

How can the article be unlocked ?

I'm finding it difficult to post this since I keep getting edit conflicts.

Please sign comments on talk pages too. I'd prefer something that conveys a little more NPOV, such as "very". I see ultra-conservative as meaning "too conservative" which is POV.

The article will be unlocked once "all parties agree" that disputes have been resolved, which I'd say we're close to doing, but not quite there yet. Deskana (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, all I can say is that as it is at the moment I don't think the "Britain" part of article properly conveys to say, someone from South America or Asia, that real anti-Irish feeling has not been mainstream in mainland Britain since the the 1950s and 1960s, . For me the "ultra" was a way of emphasising how marginal the genuinely anti-Irish element has been since then .

This doesn't seem worth arguing into the night over.

Alex B.

I'm not willing to change my viewpoint just so the article can get unlocked- it will get unlocked when there is concensus.

I take it you don't agree with using the word "very" or something similar as opposed to "ultra"? Then we might be spending a while debating. Deskana (talk) 00:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, if people are happy with "very", that would be OK with me too .

Alex B.

I'll request unprotection then. Also, please sign all comments to talk pages using ~~~~

It's unprotected now. Deskana (talk) 16:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks & sorry for not responding to your initial query quicker, as I could see the " you have new messages" sign but didn't quite know where they usually come up.

Alex.

PLEASE sign all comments to talk pages using ~~~~ -- Deskana (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Population of Ireland?

The article claims that the population of Ireland was 5.6 million in 2002. This seems quite high to me. Is there a source for this claim? ____Ebelular 11:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that is a combination of the pouplation figures for both the republic and Northern Ireland based on the last census or estimaes, which off the top of my head would be about right though i would have to check those numbers. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The population of Ireland is actually over 5.7 million now. Sources are the UK Census of 2001 and the Republic of Ireland Census figures. Yes - Ireland, being an island, does indeed include both the Republic of Ireland (pop: 4+ million) and Northern Ireland (pop: 1.7+ million). --Mal 06:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

At this stagr Sept 2006, the population, of the South 4.2+ and the North 1.7+, must be touching 6 million getting near Sweden done beyond Norway, Denmark, Finland, Austria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Durrus (talk • contribs)

Irish Republic

I have changed the phrase 'government of the Irish Republic' to 'government of Ireland.' The name of the country is not 'Irish Republic;' it is Ireland (Art 4 Bunreacht na hÉireann). Republic of Ireland is used as a description only(s2 Republic of Ireland Act 1948). Irish Republic is inaccurate. Iolar

'Republic of Ireland' is not inaccurate however. The name of the country is actually "Éire". The translation of Éire into English is "Ireland". However, this is inaccurate in itself as Ireland is actually an island with two countries in it.

From The Times, 8th of August, 1949: Mr MacBride, the Irish Minister of Foreign Affairs, tonight sent an official request to the Council of Europe to refer to his country simply as Ireland and not as Eire or as the Republic of Ireland. This request is seen by observers here as part of a systematic campaign by the Government in Dublin to link the question of the partition of Ireland with every organization of which it is a member.

The use of the name 'Ireland' is contentious to this day as it infers the whole of the island, as opposed to twenty-six of the thirty-two counties of Ireland and, more importantly, can lead to confusion (especially to foreigners - which is probably what had been intended by the decision to name the country 'Ireland').

The Ireland Act of 1949 (UK) and the Republic of Ireland Act of 1948 (RoI) both state that "Republic of Ireland" can be used as an alternative official name for the country.

Politics aside, the country is known as the 'Republic of Ireland' when ambiguity is possible (for example, in such cases whereby Northern Ireland should NOT be included in the context). Frequently both the Republic's and the UK's governments refer to "Republic of Ireland" in official, external and internal communiqués.

Interestingly, the first name ever given to the country in modern history, and in terms of republicanism, was in 1916, when it was declared as "Poblacht na hÉireann" - literally "Republic of Ireland". However, this illegitimate declaration was applied to the whole of the island, at a time before a Treaty had ratified a compromise for those Irish people who did not want to part from the United Kingdom.

Having said all that, I have not and will not change the edit as the term "government of Ireland" is reasonably unambiguous, given the context. --Mal 08:00, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Other diasporas

"This contrasts with citizenship law in Italy, Germany, Israel, Japan and other countries which make no legal reference to cherishing special affinities with their diasporas but which nonetheless permit legal avenues through which members of the diaspora can register as citizens."

With the exception of repatriates from Eastern Europe, Germany provides very few legal avenues for members of the German diaspora to register as citizens. In order to aquire German citizenship through descent, a person must be born to a parent who is a German citizen at the time of birth. However, German citizenship is automatically lost when a German citizen voluntarily acquires the citizenship of another country, meaning most people of German descent in the U.S., Canada, Latin America, Australia etc. are ineligible for German citizenship. Therefore, I have removed Germany from the list of countries mentioned. 202.72.148.102

Success Everywhere

An interesting phenomenon with people of Irish descent is that it seems that no matter how far removed generationally - there remains an afinity or identity with Ireland - and for the most part this afinity has been accepted and welcomed by those "genuine" Irish that remain in Ireland - although recently I feel that the mutual admiration of say the Irish and Irish American is on the decline particularly on the Irish born side - possibly due to the fact that emigration has dramaticly declined but an interesting observation of the Irish Diaspora is that it seems that the Irish have done well everywhere except in Ireland. When sent to Australia as convicts they excelled - when fleeing famine and oppression for brighter futures in America - within 1 generation they were successful - Therefore one must ask why these people could not be successful at home? Many theories are put forward but ultimately they all revert to poor government by Britain when the Irish were subjugated and marginalised as policy. However it is interesting to review the endless lists of Irish Americans who are proud and identify with this identity from perhaps 1 Irish Great Grandparent or Grandparent or even further back- most of these famous Americans are the great grandchildren of Famine survivors - would they have succeeded had their ancestor stayed in Ireland? Would John Kennedy become the Taoiseach? Would Bing Crosby and Judy Garland have been world famous singers? Would Politics and entertainment have had such rich contributions? Would Maureen O'Hara have been praised for her beauty (and red hair) had she stayed home? Is there a way that this can be examined ? I find it extraordinary that such great luminaries in all fields have come from this island - why? Vono 18:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

John Martin

There is a John Martin listed on the biography section that points to a disambiguation page. I don't have enough information to figure out which one it is. Can someone please correct this link to the proper page instead of the dab? Thanks --Brian G 00:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think wikipedia has an article about a congressman named John Martin. The link to John Martin (Governor of Kansas) says he is of Scotch-Irish heritage, but that's in US state politics. This should just be a list of very famous members of the diaspora anyway. Graham talk 13:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. --Brian G 14:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Australia

A couple of paragraphs were included to the Australian section claiming anti-Irish bias in that country. I can't see the relevance within the added text to any anti-Irish sentiment in Australia. If you can't re-word it to show the relevance, please explain it here, and perhaps someone else can have a go at re-wording.

Failing that, I think the paragraphs are irrelevant to the article. --Mal 02:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Peoria, Illinois

During and after the famines, some of my great and great-great grandparents moved to Peoria, Illinois, "because of the large Irish community there". There is some evidence in my family that this community still had some degree of Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge) spoken and sung. However, I've been unable to find anything about this outside of my extended family. I'm wondering if anyone else knows of this, because I'd like to document it more fully. Irish immigrants from Ulster and Munster moved there, either as soon as they arrived or after years of bonded servitude in places like New York, so it wasn't just families from the same area regrouping there. We have documentation there was *some* community, but we just don't know how large it was. --Kathryn NicDhàna 20:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

in order to mention anything in the article, we need a source. But I'm interested as well, as the ancestors of my grandfather also settled in Peoria. That is, until he moved out here to the West Coast. Best of luck. Ethereal Vega (talk) 21:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Quote from the constitution...

"[f]urthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

It says urthermore in the constitution and the f was added by the wikipedia editor? If not, I don't understand the use of brackets in this instance. Yonatanh 21:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Notable People Representative of the Irish Diaspora

the list is I beleive a good one but I also beleive that famous people, Irish born or of Irish descent who were children or great grandchildren of Irish immigrants from the famine period are the most appropriate to list However I also beleive that only people who have a Wikipedia article or a link should be listed and of course they should be famous in the wider historic or timeless sense - people should not add themselves or a random person simply because they have an Irish background, the entrants should have contributed in some way to the country they ended up in and have a verifiable Irish identity - Whilst to a degree the Irish Diaspora has contineud over time the centre of it happened from the mid-19th century and to a lesser degree through the 1970s. Therefore the majority of those listed are appropriate entries but this is not a "list" of famous Irish people but rather an overview and entries should have a criteria. 81.99.65.220 18:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

UK Irish diaspora

As well as London, i'm sure you'll find that there are a lot of people with Irish descent in Liverpool and Manchester. Liverpool especially seeing as it is the nearest dock to Ireland. 82.31.32.48 19:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"Large port cities such as Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Portsmouth..." - someone needs to check a map here. I haven't changed this because I don't know why Manchester and Leeds have big Irish communities, but could use some rewording. Wilston 12:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

After the building of the Manchester Ship Canal Manchester and Salford became ports so Manchester was a port city. During this time Manchester had become the first industrial city, refer to the Manchester article, and as a result many Irish immigrants descended on the Manchester-Salford conurbation and to this day Manchester has a very rich Irish heritage, even rivalling Liverpool's, with almost 40% of Mancunians being of Irish or part Irish blood. With many famous 'Irish-Mancunians' such as Morrissey, Liam Gallagher and Noel Gallagher being proud of their Irish routes and Manchester boasting the biggest St.Patrick's Day parade in Europe. There is actually a website dedicated to this Irish heritage and 'Irish-Mancunians' available at http://www.manchesterirish.com/ As you can see Manchester does have a large Irish community and therefore this should not be altered. AS, 21:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Irish Nannies and Governesses

The last Russian Royal Family employed a Limerick woman, Margaretta Eager or Eggar who helped raise the 4 ill fated Grand Duchesses (Anastasia being the most famous today). It has been recorded in several biographies that the 4 princesses spoke English with a slight Irish brogue - "Although the girls were thoroughly Russian, they spoke English with their mother, Russian to their father and Aleksey, and both English and Russian among themselves. They felt equally comfortable in both languages. "When they were infants they had an Irish Governess, named Miss Eiger. From her they acquired an Hibernian accent." from the Alexander Palace histories. 81.99.65.220 22:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

USA Medal of Honor Recipients

With 256 Irish born recipients Ireland has the highest proportion of Congressional Medal of Honor Winners than any other group of immigrants to teh USA - this is an important statistic and should be worked into the United States section of this article 81.99.65.220 12:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Jim Callaghan

I'd always thought that Jim Callaghan's father was Irish, but in the Irish Times today, Brian Walker of Queen's University, Belfast, disputes this: "his father only assumed this name when he joined the navy to escape his family."Millbanks 22:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC).

Does anyone know if this is true? Durrus 13:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Good question. I've long since been wary of believing everything I read in the newspapers, but Mr Walker's assertion has the ring of truth to it, since he's an academic not a journalist, and does not seem to have any particular axe to grind. I think that the best way to verify this would be to write to him at Queen's, but I'm really not inclined to do it myself. Millbanks 09:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

his father was from northern Ireland but settled in portsmouth after being demobbed, thats what his official bio says

plus writing yourself would be original research

Margaret Thatcher

I was surprised to see her name in the article. Can anyone establish that she had Irish ancestry? If not, I suggest we delete. Millbanks 22:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've now deleted it. Millbanks 20:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Reverse Diaspora

Although 1.4% of the population of Britain are Irish born, the 2006 Irish census showed that 2.7% of people in the Republic of Ireland were born in the UK. But since 48% of them classified themselves as Roman Catholic, it could well be that many are of Irish origin.Millbanks 10:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

That 48% you are talking about, is that 48% of the 2.7% of people in the RoI who were born in Britain? --81.132.246.132 21:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Millbanks 20:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Timeframe

When we talk about the Irish Diaspora, can we put a timescale on it. Looking at history and archaeology, people have been moving to and from, most notably, but not exclusively Ireland and Britain, Ireland and Spain since the Neolithic. And this appears to have been going on continuously. Can we agree on a timescale for when this started so we can more meaningfully discuss the Irish Diaspora not just the movement of a few people here and there. Large population movements occured with the Great Irish Famine but could have started with the Great Irish Famine (1740-1741). Can someone advise, and then we can sharpen up the article. --81.132.246.132 22:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph Removed

I removed the following:

The late 1990's witnessed a ground change in opinion of the Irish community in Britain. The Celtic Tiger economic resurgence in the Republic of Ireland, combined with the literary and pop culture contributions of Irish bands, artists and so forth contributed to a growing sense of appeal. These movements, when combined with the end of violence in Northern Ireland created a change in public opinion toward the Irish at the populace level.

It had been waiting for a cite since August, and I think it's nonsense anyway. The Irish have for decades been well integrated into UK communities. I'm sure there was a problem at some point, but it ended before my lifetime (1970s).86.16.117.32 12:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

GiollaUidir, the reference you added was worthless. That's a partisan piece by an opinion columnist. He's trying to invoke the spectre of the PTA and it's supposed effect on the Irish community as a parallel to Islamic terrorism today. He has an interest in exaggerating to make his point. I'm of distant Irish Ancestry myself, know plenty of Irish people, and happened to grow up in one of the towns that was bombed by the IRA, as mentioned in that article. The many Irish people I knew were neither regarded with suspicion by their neighbours, nor did they live in fear of being fingered as terrorists. My opinion is worth as much as Paul Donovan's, which isn't much... but either way it's not supported by a sound reference, so I'm reverting.86.16.117.32 15:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

poor sentence construction, confusing re-direct

Because a majority of these were Presbyterians, and many of those had settled in Ulster from Scotland, they became known as the "Scotch-Irish" in the United States, to which they formed a steady stream of emigration throughout the 18th century.

it seems like a bad long sentence. also scotch-irish redirects to another article. i dont know enough about this to edit it myself so i will just ask here and leave it to someone with better grammar and knowledge of the subject.

signed, some_guy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.237.177 (talk) 01:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Article Structure and Size

The list of countries in which the Irish Diaspora is found seems to have no order to it. Should it be Continent/Country order, or Country order, or by size of the Irish Diaspora in each country?

In order to reduce the size, should the list of Famous Diaspora be removed and those listed have the Irish Diaspora category tag added? Bazj (talk) 08:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• • The article is an excellent one providing good information and demonstrating the wide reach of this tiny island but is moving toward the unmanageable stage - I think that the list of Artists and Muscians has gotten out of control with too many 'unknowns' listed. The list is an excellent way to demonstrate the variety and huge contribution that the Irish made to the world but it should be limited to people that are well known throughout the world/USA etc - Talk show hosts and minor clebs whose fame is limited and propbably time bound are do not make the case for real contribution or are worth mentioning. In addition it should only include people that have at some point been identified by their Irishness, not people that just have an Irish name. I would leave about a dozen people on it - only those true international and timeless people by way of example; legends like: Maureen O'Hara, Bing Crosby, Judy Garland, Grace Kelly, John Wayne, The Beatles etc. should stay and add value to teh article's ethos as their contributions span many decades and their talent and fame is still praised today. Most of those on the lsit will be unknown altogether in a few years (to be kind) if not in a few months!Vono (talk) 17:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

• I've ensured all the Brits on the list of Famous Diaspora have got the Category:British people of Irish descent tag, and added a link to the list on the Britain section.
  When I've got some more time I'll do the equivalent for the other countries listed. When they're all done I'll remove the Famous Diaspora section. Bazj (talk) 17:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Irish Female Diaspora

Ireland is the only country where as many females (if not more!) as males emigrated to the New World, especially the United States. In fact, Ireland was the biggest exporter of females to America, followed by the English and Germans. Much of Irish-American (Although not all) DNA is maternal. Relatively few women emigrated from countries such as Italy, Portugal, Spain, etc., therefore many Italian-Americans such as John Travolta have maternal Irish DNA and not Italian. The French had to boost their female population with casket girls or "King's Daughters" as they were commonly known, but the Irish girls and women emigrated voluntarily, often finding work as nannies, domestics, or nurses. The articles fails to mention this phenomenon. It certainly explains why the Irish are the second-largest white ethnic group in the US and also why the blood is still fairly unmixed as in the case of the Kennedys.jeanne (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• • • Like John Travolta - Liza Minnelli's Mitochondrial DNA (mitDNA) is Irish - as mitDNA is passed down through the generations virtually unchanged through the female line it means that Liza's mitDNA is Irish as it has directly come through an unbroken female line from Mary (Harriott) Fitzpatrick born in Dublin in 1841 to her daughter Eva Fitzpatrick, her granddaughter Ethel Milne, her Great Granddaughter Judy Garland and to Liza Minnelli and her sister Lorna Luft and to Luft's daughter and all her other female descendents down the generations from that female line. As you indicate in your post, Irish females did emigrate to destinations around the globe but particularly to America and Australia in record numbers and this was unprecidented. Therefore many millions of people are carrying mitDNA that has originated in Ireland and are unaware of it because the Irish female ancestor married into a non Irish family and the knowledge of the connection was lost over generations but where there has been unbroken female lines the mitDNA is virtually the same as the Irish female ancestor it originated from. mitDNA is the best source for establishing origins and family relationships used by forensics and science because it remains unchanged.82.0.104.72 (talk) 12:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as I mentioned many male immigants to America took Irish wives so that a large amount of women in America possess Irish mitDNA, but this would also be true in England as many Irish females immigrated there. However, would the Irish mitDNA be much different from the English or Welsh mitDNA as all the people of Ireland and Great Britain were said to be the same originally- Iberians closely related to the Basques prior to the arrival of the Celts, Romans, Saxons? Seeing as the latter two did not migrate directly to Ireland, they would show in the paternal Y-chromasome DNA of many English men but not in most Irish men as they would doubtlessly possess Celtic DNA. I ask this because genetically I am three-quarters Irish. However, my direct maternal line is English, so I would possess English mitDNA. But it wouldn't be Saxon or Roman as they would have brought few females with them, thus intermarried with the locals.--jeanne (talk) 08:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Irish-Puerto Ricans

The "See also - Irish immigration to Puerto Rico" should not be placed in the "United States" section. Puerto Rico is a nation with it's own traditions, customs, language (Spanish dialect), literature and citizenship located in the Caribbean.

On October 25, 2006, the Puerto Rican State Department declared the existence of the Puerto Rican nationality (see: Juan Mari Bras). Puerto Rican nationality was recognized in 1898 after Spain ceded the island to the United States as a result of the Spanish-American War. In 1917, the United States granted Puerto Ricans U.S. citizenship without the requirement that the islanders renounce their PR citizenship. Since then, everyone born in Puerto Rico are both Puerto Ricans and U.S. citizens. There is no need to renounce since Puerto Ricans do not need a passport to go to the mainland and have the same rights and can participate in every activity as U.S. citizens.

While it is true that Puerto Rico is a "territory" (fancy word for colony) of the United States, it is non-the-less a nation in its own right (not an independent one) with an option for independence. Puerto Rico has more in common with Latin America then it has with the United States. Puerto Rico can be considered the "United States" if and when the people of Puerto Rico decide to ask for U.S. statehood and said status is granted by the U.S. Government. Until that happens, it is a Latin American country territory of the U.S. in the Caribbean. It cannot be considered the "United States" as "Hong Kong" was not considered to be "England". Thank you Tony the Marine (talk) 22:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

References

Baltimore

i am of partial irish heritage and have lived in and around b'more since coming here for college. i have never thought of the city as having an especially large or active irish population. i'd like to see some justification for b'more's inclusion in that list.the irish origins of the name and the irish connection of the calvert family don't really suffice.Toyokuni3 (talk) 14:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

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Greeley Nebraska

"Greeley, Nebraska (population 580) has the highest percentage of Irish-American residents (46%) of any town or city with a population of over 500 in the United States." The US Census Ancestry listed 42.5% of the town's population indicated Irish descent. This is less than Milton, Massachusetts which lists 43% of reported ancestries as Irish. This [8] indicates Milton is the most Irish town (only including 5000+). Does anyone have a source that Greeley NE is the most "Irish" town other than the 2000 Census? (Milton has a population around 26K.)

As I was typing this up I decided to check a few other places that I know are very Irish and hit on Marshfield (44.9% Irish, 24K total). As such I've removed the claim. PantsB (talk) 19:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

New Zealand

Why has no section been included on the contribution of Irish people to the development of New Zealand? I think there are far more Kiwis of Irish descent than there are Bermudans or Puerto Ricans. Also, what about Irish emigration to Rhodesia? I know there are few remaining whites in Zim nowadays but surely the Irish have played a role in that country's development and history?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.86.81.20 (talk) 01:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I would completely agree with the previous contributor. There were a huge number of Irish immigrants to New Zealand especially to the provinces of Westland, Auckland and Canterbury. There are many books that deal with this subject - see below:

New Zealand Irish voices : stories from Irish migrants and their descendants / Karen Hansen. Irish in New Zealand : historical contexts and perspectives / edited by Brad Patterson. Lucky landing : the story of the Irish in New Zealand / Anna Rogers. Irish migrants in New Zealand, 1840-1937 : 'the desired haven' / Angela McCarthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.116.32 (talk) 03:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Montserrat

hi new user so sorry if i have messed up  ??? Montserrat..

I think the article should include more in relation to Montserrat and the Caribbean in general. the fact that Montserrat is officially known as "the emerald isle of the Caribbean" and that their immigration stamp is a shamrock is worth noting. st Patrick's day celebrations are a dual celebration as their was a black slave up-rising on this day (helped by the Irish) against the British. their flag has Erin paying a harp on a blue back ground with the union jack on the top left. many place names in Montserrat are of Irish origin... i don't think Cromwell deported the Irish here but they had been attracted (from Barbados where they had been deported from) here as they could practice their faith openly without repression.

some greater reference should be made to the deportation of the Irish by Cromwell to Barbados and jamaica "to Hell or Barbados: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland" by Sean O'Callaghan .. goes into some detail in this regard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skintandbroke (talk • contribs) 01:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

from montserrat tourism website

Montserrat is popularly known as the “Emerald Isle of the Caribbean”, not just because of its lush, green, tropical landscape, but also because of its unique Irish connections, which date back centuries. Named after a Spanish monastery by Christopher Columbus as he sailed past the island in 1493, Montserrat was originally inhabited by Arawak and Carib Indians. The first European settlers in 1632 were English and Irish Catholics brought over from the Protestant island of St Kitts by Englishman Thomas Warner. Whilst Catholics were unwelcome in other British colonies, the religion was tolerated on Montserrat and the island became a refuge for persecuted Irish Catholics. In addition, Cromwell sent some of his Irish political prisoners to Montserrat following his victory at Drogheda in 1649. By 1678, a census showed that more than half the people on the island were Irish, with the remainder a combination of English, Scots and Africans. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the Irish had the strongest influence on the developing culture of Montserrat, which is still apparent today.

The Irish connection is obvious upon arrival in Montserrat in the distinctive shamrock which is stamped in all international passports. The national flag also bears a crest of the legendary Irish figure of Erin with a harp standing alongside the Union Jack.

Montserrat is the only country in the world outside Ireland where St Patrick’s Day is a public holiday. On March 17th, celebrations are staged across the island, consisting of special events, concerts and performances. The festivities now spread over a week, taking on a distinctly Caribbean flavour with blends of calypso, reggae and iron band music. During the week, the old custom of wearing green still remains.

Irish heritage is still very much in evidence in the names of both towns and inhabitants, while the national dish, goat water, is supposedly based on a traditional Irish stew recipe. A popular local folk dance, the Bam-chick-a-lay, is also thought to have its root in Irish step dance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skintandbroke (talk • contribs) 02:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Irish influence on accent of Bermuda

Characteristics of older Bermudian accents, such as the pronunciation of the letter 'd' as 'dj', as in Bermudjin (Bermudian), may also indicate an Irish origin.

Any source for this? Looks spurious to me. There's nothing Irish about "-dian" turning into "-djin". Flapdragon (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• In Brazil, the "dji"(di/de) and "tshi"(ti/te) is relacionated to bantu slaves; in Rio de Janeiro for example the accent pronunciation speaks "Taitshi" and not Tahiti(european/portuguese accent); in Bermudas the case is very similarity..!!

• And in Eastern Pernambuco, speakes "mutsho" and not muito(very in portuguese); influence spaniard or bantu too..?? In the english language and indo-europeans, the "tsh"/"dj" only pronuciated in "ch" and "j" phonems and in all vogals and not only in the "i/e/u" phonems..!!(in the semi-vogals)!!

• Conclusion: "tsh" and "dj" only in semi-vogals = bantu influence(in case of "i" phonem) or spaniard too(in case of "u" phonem?)..!!

• Indo-european influence = "tsh" and "dj" in ch and j(for example: in the vocabule "chair"); in all vogals and not only in the semi-vogals; in the case of Caraibas(Caribe) Sea and Rio/Pernambuco is bantu origin(very bantu speakers..)!!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.0.185 (talk) 13:42, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Slavery

Little to no references to slavery, forced labour as well as the slave industries use of Irish slaves made at all in factors for the Irish diaspora. This conforms to the mainstream, but openly quite incorrect, idea that the Irish were not treated as barbaricly as Carribean natives and Africans by the colonial powers at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.210.208 (talk) 00:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Valid point. - Lugnad (talk) 09:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

On reflection - slavery is there, but it is fragmented - a case could be made for a separate paragraph. I note the phrase "Oliver Cromwell deported many Irish prisoners of war". This is inaccurate, (not POWs), but until I get a good reference I won't amend. - Lugnad (talk) 09:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

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Numbers?

Hey, I was wondering where we are getting the numbers for this page. The only real source I see with numbers is the one for the American Census. For example it says under the Definition section "The diaspora, broadly interpreted, contains all those known to have Irish ancestors, i.e., over 100 million people, which is more than fifteen times the population of the island of Ireland, which was about 6.4 million in 2011." but without a source (I am assuming the 100 million means all living people only). The number doesn't appear again and seems to contradict other parts of the article saying the number is from 75 to 80 million people.

Is there also any more information on the 75 to 80 million? I tried researching but couldn't find any more concrete figures on the Irish Diaspora (besides those with Irish passports living outside of Ireland). The chart on the bottom is missing almost ten million people and the article makes it unlikely there are about ten million other "Irish diaspora" in the other nations of the world combined (assuming this article means the person has to identify as Irish to some extent as otherwise the number would likely be much higher than even 100 million)

Oirish

Oirish redirects here. Surely it should redirect to Plastic Paddy if it doesn't warrant its own article? --Ef80 (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

"Scotch Irish"?

The article refers to "Scotch Irish" several times. Isn't the proper usage Scots Irish? Foreignshore (talk) 04:28, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

It's an old American term. Nobody in Britain or Ireland uses it as far as I'm aware. "Scotch" continues to be used in a number of old names, most obviously whisky but also "Scotch Egg". --Ef80 (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

But, yes, there is an increasing view that "Scots Irish" is more approriate; see discussion at Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans. A clear consensus has not emerged there yet, but it is probably inevitable over the coming few years because of the increasing number of sources that prefer "Scots Irish" and deprecate "Scotch Irish". As with many things, WP is often a bit behind active usage currency, waiting until the reliable-source preference for one form of a term over another becomes overwhelming.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

David Cameron

I just updated the status of David Cameron from 'current' to 'former' Prime Minister - and out of interest looked at his Wikipedia entry. However, on his page he himself refers to his ancestry as Welsh, Scottish and English. Can someone who is familiar with his ancestry either add his Irish roots on his page, or if there isn't any Irish connection please remove his mention on this article.Ray3055 (talk) 18:23, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

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Colombia

Add Colombia to the Map Jhoan Batipse (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Why? We don't have any referenced material in the article to support there being a significant diaspora population in Colombia. Please provide references. Canterbury Tail talk 02:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

I propose that the section about Bermuda be split into a separate page called Irish Immigration to Bermuda. The content of the section is only marginally related to the main article, and this section is large and well-sourced enough to make its own page. Shoreranger (talk) 16:53, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I think this is a good idea as the Bermuda section is quite long, probably longer than some of the "Irish Immigration to -" pages. King HB 21:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. The Irish_diaspora#Bermuda section has perhaps gotten a little long (relative to the other similar sections in the article and the article as a whole). To the extent that WP:SIZESPLIT probably does apply. The proposed title and approach would be consistent with Irish immigration to Barbados and Irish immigration to Montserrat and Irish immigration to Mexico and other equivalents. Proposal seems reasonable to me. Guliolopez (talk) 15:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. It is routine to split out over-long sections into new articles, as long as the newly separate subject can be WP:GNG, which this can. Just leave behind a proper, concise WP:SUMMARY after the split, of course.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:14, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Shoreranger: as this does not seem to be a controversial decision, to my understanding it can be split without issue. ᚴᛁᚾᚷ ᚼᛒ Talk, Guestbook 21:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Shoreranger: as the nominator, is this something you are proposing to move forward with yourself? If not, and if no others do or can action the proposal, the "split" tag should perhaps be removed. (As the thread is not active and the tag not serving a specific purpose.) Guliolopez (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@Shoreranger: do you intend to go through with this split? ☘️ King ᚺᛒ ☘️ Talk, Guestbook 17:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Additional sources

Will just add them here as I run across them:

• Fanning, Charles, ed. (2000). New Perspectives on the Irish Diaspora. Southern Illinois University Press. ISBN 9780809323449.
• Horning, Audrey (2012). Ireland in the Virginian Sea: Colonialism in the British Atlantic. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 9781469610726.
• Newton, Michael Steven, ed. (2013). Celts in the Americas. Sydney, Nova Scotia: Cape Breton University Press / Nimbus Publishing. ISBN 9781897009758. – "This volume contains a selection of the best papers from the conference, five invited chapters, and an introduction, for a total of nearly 149,000 words." Also covers Scottish, Welsh, etc.
• Sumner, Natasha; Doyle, Aidan, eds. (2020). North American Gaels: Speech, Song, and Story in the Diaspora. McGill–Queen's University Press. ISBN 9780228003793.
• Miller, Kerby A. (1988) [1985]. Emigrants in Exile: Ireland and the Irish Exodus to North America. New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195051872.
• Miller, Kerby A.; Boling, Bruce D.; Doyle, David N.; Schrier, Arnold, eds. (2003). Irish Immigrants in the Land of Canaan: Letters and Memoirs from Colonial and Revolutionary America 1675–1815. New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195154894. – "A massive, scrupulously edited case studies of early emigrants from Ireland (most from Ulster)"
• Dickson, R. J. (2010). Ulster Emigration to Colonial America, 1718–1785. Ulster Historical Foundation. ISBN 9780901905178.
• Wokeck, Marianne (1999). Trade in Strangers: The Beginning of Mass Migration to North America. College Park: Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 9780271018331. – Covers more than Irish (German, African, etc.).
• See also: Talk:Ulster Scots people#Additional sources, Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans#Additional sources, Talk:Scotch-Irish Canadians#Additional sources.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Maximilien Robespierre?

I'm seeing him listed as being part of the Irish disapora but I can't find any info that backs that up, anyone have an idea why he's on this list? BHC (talk) 09:40, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

No evidence of it, nothing on their article, I've removed them. Canterbury Tail talk 12:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)